Element Confusion

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clw_uk
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Element Confusion

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:10 pm

In the Mahapunnama Sutta - MK the buddha says;

"The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the material form aggregate"

I cant work out how the elements are the cause for the material form, arent the four elements earth, fire, wind, water with, for example, earth just standing for skin, nail etc and so just characteristics of the material aggregate?
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
Sextus Empiricus

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Paul Davy
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Re: Element Confusion

Postby Paul Davy » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:54 pm

Greetings,

From memory, I think earth refers to solidity, water refers to cohesion, fire refers to heat, and air refers to movement.

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

Having understood name-and-form, which is a product of prolificity,
And which is the root of all malady within and without,
He is released from bondage to the root of all maladies,
That Such-like-one is truly known as 'the one who has understood'.
(Snp 3.6)

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Dhammanando
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Re: Element Confusion

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:20 pm

Hi Craig,

clw_uk wrote:I cant work out how the elements are the cause for the material form


Each of the four great primaries serves as a condition for the arising of the others and collectively they are a condition for the arising of secondary/derivative materiality (e.g., sense organs, gender, life faculty etc.).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    Yathā bubbuḷakaṃ passe, yathā passe marīcikaṃ,
    Evaṃ lokaṃ avekkhantaṃ, maccurājā na passati.

    One should see it as a bubble;
    One should see it as a mirage.
    Who regards the world thus
    The King of Death sees him not.
    (Dhammapada 170)


    ผู้ที่มองเห็นโลก ว่าไม่จีรังและหาสาระอะไรมิได้
    เช่นเดียวกับคนมองฟองน้ำและพยับแดด
    คนเช่นนี้พญามารย่อมตามหาไม่พบ ฯ
    (ธรรมบท ๑๗๐)

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clw_uk
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Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Element Confusion

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:20 pm

Thank you, do you know how they are the origin of material aggregate?
The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search.
Sextus Empiricus

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Dhammanando
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Phrao, Chiang Mai

Re: Element Confusion

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:57 pm

Hi Craig,

clw_uk wrote:Thank you, do you know how they are the origin of material aggregate?


The material aggregate is simply a name for the four great primaries and the secondary matter that arises with the great primaries as its proximate cause.

For a full account of rūpa see chapter 6 of the Abhidhammatthsangaha:
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/abhisgho/abhis06.htm

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    Yathā bubbuḷakaṃ passe, yathā passe marīcikaṃ,
    Evaṃ lokaṃ avekkhantaṃ, maccurājā na passati.

    One should see it as a bubble;
    One should see it as a mirage.
    Who regards the world thus
    The King of Death sees him not.
    (Dhammapada 170)


    ผู้ที่มองเห็นโลก ว่าไม่จีรังและหาสาระอะไรมิได้
    เช่นเดียวกับคนมองฟองน้ำและพยับแดด
    คนเช่นนี้พญามารย่อมตามหาไม่พบ ฯ
    (ธรรมบท ๑๗๐)


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