Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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christopher:::
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by christopher::: »

appicchato wrote:
christopher::: wrote:I just seem to find myself...being drawn closer to Theravadin Buddhism...
:thumbsup:
And of course, Theravadin Buddhists...!

:bow:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
PeterB
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by PeterB »

Can I make a suggestion
Chris ?

That you consider confining your questions to practitioners of each tradition ? I think if you ask what Theravadins think of Zen or vice versa etc most likely outcome is reasons why they do not follow that tradition although they can see its merits. Or even more likely a tactful silence because people dont want to cause offence. Apart from a few followers of a certain young western teacher that is who appear to see causing offense as a duty of Right Speech :smile: .

So positive reasons on here as to the Theravada, and on ZFI re Zen, and on E Sangha if you still can access it, re the Vajrayana etc..Just a thought. Minimises crossed lines of communication.

metta.
Peter.
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christopher:::
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by christopher::: »

Hi Peter. I kind of agree. To be honest, i'm not sure if my question as phrased here really needs answering... More and more it seems to me that any situation can be helpful, or unhelpful. Teacher or no-teacher, Sangha as teacher, Working with the sutras directly, being guided by a wise friend, listening to dharma talks, reading the words of wise departed teachers. As long as the guidance is coming from those who understand the dharma a bit better then yourself, it's potentially helpful. But we have to put any guidance into practice- moment to moment, day to day, and that- more then anything else- seems most "essential"... That's what i've kinda noticed lately.... I have to do this, follow the way that the Buddha taught, the path that works...

:heart: :buddha1: :heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
PeterB
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by PeterB »

I dont think that Sangha is an abstract Chris, it is always present to in human form. I think its arguable whether cyber Sangha is actual Sangha or an aid to Sangha..The Buddha taught in the most hands-on way possible. I think that this wasnt just because of the era in which he lived, but because the nuances of thought and comunication are only possible in face to face encounters with people, the body language, the subtlties of tone and inflexion. I am always struck for ezample in the way that reducing Ajahn Chahs words to written form takes almost all the life from them..they become lifeless in comparison to the vivid living quality of hearing those words spoken. Its the same with the words of Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Brahm..the words on the page are pale reflections of the person who is communicating Dhamma beyond the words. I am not talking about anything mystical here..I am talking about people whose words and gestures and actions show their internalisation of the Dhamma.
On a personal note in terms of things Sangha, I have in a sense come full circle. I have spoken elsewhere of the fact that I started my Buddhist life at Wat Buddhapadipa when it was in Sheen in London, I first took Refuge there and was taught Vipassana. After a serious illness I found myself without any kind of emotionality or strategy going back to my Theravada roots. Due to reasons connected to work matters , my wife and I are now spending part of each week in an apartment a short journey from Wat Buddhapadipa in its present location in Wimbledon...Life's a funny business..

:anjali:

Peter.
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christopher:::
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by christopher::: »

PeterB wrote: On a personal note in terms of things Sangha, I have in a sense come full circle. I have spoken elsewhere of the fact that I started my Buddhist life at Wat Buddhapadipa when it was in Sheen in London, I first took Refuge there and was taught Vipassana. After a serious illness I found myself without any kind of emotionality or strategy going back to my Theravada roots. Due to reasons connected to work matters , my wife and I are now spending part of each week in an apartment a short journey from Wat Buddhapadipa in its present location in Wimbledon... Life's a funny business..
That's wonderful to hear, Peter..!
I dont think that Sangha is an abstract Chris, it is always present to in human form. I think its arguable whether cyber Sangha is actual Sangha or an aid to Sangha.. The Buddha taught in the most hands-on way possible. I think that this wasnt just because of the era in which he lived, but because the nuances of thought and comunication are only possible in face to face encounters with people, the body language, the subtlties of tone and inflexion. I am always struck for ezample in the way that reducing Ajahn Chahs words to written form takes almost all the life from them..they become lifeless in comparison to the vivid living quality of hearing those words spoken. Its the same with the words of Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Brahm.. the words on the page are pale reflections of the person who is communicating Dhamma beyond the words. I am not talking about anything mystical here..I am talking about people whose words and gestures and actions show their internalisation of the Dhamma.
Well, first, you could be absolutely 100% right. My view though is that it depends. We do not have access to the voice of the Buddha, to videos of him, and will never be able to sit in his presence. And yet his wisdom has come across time, some of it very simple and practical. You don't need to be near him to benefit, one simply needs to follow his instructions.

A good example of this would be a link Retro provided me with recently on Buddha's advice concerning sexual craving. It's the best thing I've heard yet, some I'd heard from teachers before but seeing Buddha's advice in one short "recipe" format I realized right away where i'd been tripping up, why i've been struggling, and now have a wise, flexible yet clear strategy (four strategies actually) to implement.

Another example would be a video I saw very recently, of one of my favorite Buddhist teachers talking with his key disciple, a man who would later go on and become involved in sexual scandals. The teacher, who died a long while ago and is still highly respected, did not seem to pick up on some his disciples issues. Somehow he was successfully conned..!

His wisdom though, his teachings and advise, were spot on. He successfully taught many students face-to-face, but thousands of others have also benefited from his teaching, thru books mostly.

So it just seems to me that it all depends. To have a great teacher is a great great gift. But even those with great teachers don't always learn from them... It's always up to each of us to put the dharma into practice. You do that and one can be liberated. Fail to follow the Buddha's dharma to the letter, and one will suffer.

Just my view.

:group:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
PeterB
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by PeterB »

Of course we are fortunate in many ways to live in an era where so much teaching is avaialable to us in so many forms. I wouldnt want to downplay that at all, although it has a downside as well in terms of possible confusion. An embarressement of riches.
I think that books and videos are particularly helpful when it comes to learning theory, or the kind of skillful means that you refer to. I am less convinced about learning meditation methods this way. I think hands-on is infinitely preferable, and for most of us pretty much indispensible even if our relationship to that teacher never goes betond that particular learning experience. Most of the most valuable tips and instructions I have received have been little pushes in the back,( literally ) or demonstrations of the actual angle of the chin and so on. Little things that made a huge difference.
I think that there is another dimension to a hands-on relationship which is less easy to define. I am not talking guru talk here. Or magical thinking. But when we interact with the Ajahn Chahs and the Ajahn Sumedhos and the Ajahn Brahms, or for that matter with Bhikkus and Bhikkunis who may be completely unknown to the world. Or with the lay people who help prepare the Dana meal and so on, our wrong views are confronted, and our right views and right speech are reinforced in a way that cannot happen by other means. The Buddha made Sangha the third Refuge, because it corresponds to a whole dimension of human functioning in terms of relationship that needs to be informed and illuminated by his Dhamma. Because he had insight into the social nature of the human animal . It is not only a matter of data or information, or knowledge. It includes inspiration and seeing the fruit of practice before our eyes. As the Buddha made plain to Ananda spiritual friendship is all of the Dhammic life.
In the end we put out the effort and conditions arise and ripen, that will include the nature of any companionship we will find .

with metta
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christopher:::
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

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Well, yes of course, Sangha is essential. And from Sangha we find teachers, without which we are not going to be able to learn key methods, get ourselves going properly. Like learning to drive a car, or tune and play a guitar. We need guidance, an advanced practitioner observing, guiding, right by our side...

I agree 100% about the social support of a Sangha, how crucial that is. It's just a question of how much one-to-one hands on guidance may be needed, and for how long. I do wonder sometimes about a kind of dependency relationship some people get into, with a sense of pride developing for being a student of so-and-so, belonging to the so-and-so school, etc... On the fast track! An elite system, special... There's a danger there...

But also a great potential benefit, if one's teacher is really gifted, does teach a method that works, is truly guiding students skillfully- as the Buddha did- so that they learn how to apply the wisdom. Doesnt it really depend on the person, the teacher, motivation, karma, life situations?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
PeterB
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by PeterB »

I think if we find ourselves in relationship to a teacher Chris, it can only be a result of our kamma-vipaka ripening.......To some extent that is true of circumstances too. Our motivation is entirely down to our effort. I think there may be a couple of themes that run through your questions in this area Chris..You seem to have the idea (If I am wrong then just tell me, thats ok ) that receiving teachings means giving an enormous commitment in terms of time and emotional investment ( and possibly money ). I wonder if your view was conditioned by stories of guru figures with Rolls Royces. or simply by highly emotive stories of people who become infantile in the face of their teacher...Well most Buddhist teachers dont operate like that, in fact as far as know NO Theravada Buddhist teachers operate like that. In the Vajrayana you get the occasional displays of Hindu-type worshipping..Most Buddhists though see their teachers with a degree of affection and gratitude for helping them with somthing that in the end they have to do for themselves. But even if we have to row the boat ourselves, it REALLY helps to have someone encouraging us and making informed suggestions..They just need to be a bit more experienced in these matters than us.They dont need to walk on water or breath fire.
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christopher:::
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

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Hi Peter. I needed some guidance with certain specifics, and i've gotten it recently. The dharma talks with Joseph Goldstein that i've been listening to have been extremely helpful. The conversations here with yourself and fellow DW members, and reading i've done concerning the brahama viharas and techniques for diminishing craving have been very helpful. Conversations about God, little debates tiff and i have had about views and such, have not been as helpful, imo, and right now this conversation is starting to pull me away from where i was focused. What i need now is just to apply the dharma, Buddha's advice, all these strategies, most of which i actually knew before and have applied, but just haven't applied as consistently and with great effort, as i need to...

With that, i should go. Please check out the tangled up in dukkha discussion if you have a chance. Really appreciate all your input, especially when it comes to specifics of how we can free our minds....

:group:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
PeterB
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by PeterB »

My apologies for " pulling you away from where you were focused " Chris.

:anjali:
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by PeterB »

christopher::: wrote:A good teacher is an absolute blessing, I don't doubt that. Those fortunate enough to have found a teacher they can work with in 3D are very lucky. But the 3 jewels are Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, not Buddha, Dharma, Teacher....

What was Buddha's view about the importance of having a teacher to work with one-on-one, vs the support of a sangha? For a layperson practitioner, is the support of a sangha more important then having a teacher, are they equally important or is a relationship with a teacher more essential?

How does the Theravadin tradition view this?

:group:
What I wote was my own attempt to address your points here :thumbsup:

But I appear to have misunderstood...

:anjali:
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christopher:::
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by christopher::: »

There was nothing wrong with anything you said, Peter. It was just that its not good for me to spend too much time at the computer at a single stretch, or to think my illusory self has to always respond immediately to every post aimed in my direction. Its a troublesome habit i've been trying to address. My local world calls, was calling, when we were talking a few hours ago. Wife, children, dish washing, meditation cushion, pillow, bed (in that order)...

It was already past midnight by then.

Your friendship has been a blessing, and your views frequently quite insightful.

((( :group: )))
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by mikenz66 »

christopher::: wrote:Well, yes of course, Sangha is essential. And from Sangha we find teachers, without which we are not going to be able to learn key methods, get ourselves going properly. Like learning to drive a car, or tune and play a guitar. We need guidance, an advanced practitioner observing, guiding, right by our side...
Yes, because it's so easy to be deluded about what one is doing...
christopher::: wrote: I agree 100% about the social support of a Sangha, how crucial that is. It's just a question of how much one-to-one hands on guidance may be needed, and for how long. I do wonder sometimes about a kind of dependency relationship some people get into, with a sense of pride developing for being a student of so-and-so, belonging to the so-and-so school, etc... On the fast track! An elite system, special... There's a danger there...
This is a bit of a straw man argument, isn't it? Do you actually know people in real life who have this problem? Do you think it would something that would happen to you?
christopher::: wrote: But also a great potential benefit, if one's teacher is really gifted, does teach a method that works, is truly guiding students skillfully- as the Buddha did- so that they learn how to apply the wisdom. Doesnt it really depend on the person, the teacher, motivation, karma, life situations?
I think you are veering to an extreme here. A teacher doesn't have to be gifted, or famous, or whatever. They just have to be reasonably good. The couple of primary long-term monastic teachers that I have had are not famous, and I suspect that there are thousands of others out there of similar skill level. I've done short workshops or retreats with more famous monks, which is nice, and stimulating, but I don't have any particular urge to seek out the "best teacher in the world". A good, local, accessible teacher is, for me, more useful than a "superstar" because they know me, and can challenge me more specifically.

Metta
Mike
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christopher:::
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by christopher::: »

mikenz66 wrote: A teacher doesn't have to be gifted, or famous, or whatever. They just have to be reasonably good. The couple of primary long-term monastic teachers that I have had are not famous, and I suspect that there are thousands of others out there of similar skill level. I've done short workshops or retreats with more famous monks, which is nice, and stimulating, but I don't have any particular urge to seek out the "best teacher in the world". A good, local, accessible teacher is, for me, more useful than a "superstar" because they know me, and can challenge me more specifically.
Well said, Mike. I totally agree. I was kind of trying to say something similar, but stumbled a bit.

It was late last night when i was posting, overstretching with un-needed examples, building straw arguments... I was making reference to people i've bumped into online elsewhere, no one here. But some things i said would have been better off edited out.

I'm thinking i need to set a time, like perhaps 10 or 11pm, after which i don't even come near the computer.

:computerproblem:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by piper »

mikenz66 wrote:
christopher::: wrote:Well, yes of course, Sangha is essential. And from Sangha we find teachers, without which we are not going to be able to learn key methods, get ourselves going properly. Like learning to drive a car, or tune and play a guitar. We need guidance, an advanced practitioner observing, guiding, right by our side...
Yes, because it's so easy to be deluded about what one is doing...
If I may butt in, I was thinking about this today. If it is so easy then might not a teacher also falter in this way and compound the problem. If it is not so easy to delude oneself, say for example that it is easy to tell if you're stressed or basically suffering, then isn't the teacher overkill, or at least not really serving that particular service. And if you were to count on someone else to keep you on the straight and narrow for too long, wouldn't that weaken your own ability to do it yourself?
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