Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Cittasanto
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by Cittasanto »

I am not sure where this quote is from but I know it is Ajahn Chah.

he said as a teacher he is like a man watching blind men walking down a path trying to stay in the middle, it is his job as the one with sight to shout left a little or right a little to keep them on the path and not fall of it

it is from memory so I do appologise if it isnt exact or close to the quote, but I feel the essence is there!
basically the teacher isn't telling anyone to do or not to do anything they are there to give advice when it is needed, the teacher can not walk the students path nor can they do anything but give some advice, it is still the students job to see if the advice is good or not, and walk the path.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mikenz66
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by mikenz66 »

Here is the Ajahn Chah Quote:
http://nirvanahappens.com/A%20Still%20F ... rt%205.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Go Left, Go Right

A Western monk at WatBa Pong became frustrated by the difficulties of practice and the detailed and seemingly arbitrary rules of conduct the monks had to follow. He began to criticize other monks for sloppy practice and to doubt the wisdom of Achaan Chah's teaching. At one point, he went to Achaan Chah and complained, noting that even Achaan Chah himself was inconsistent and seemed often to contradict him self in an unenlightened way.

Achaan Chah just laughed and pointed out how much the monk was suffering by trying to judge others around him. Then he explained that his way of teaching is very simple: "It is as though I see people walking down a road I know well. To them the way may be unclear. I look up and see someone about to fall into a ditch on the right-hand side of the road, so I call out to him, 'Go left, go left' Similarly, if I see another person about to fall into a ditch on the left, I call out, 'Go right, go right!' That is the extent of my teaching. Whatever extreme you get caught in, whatever you get attached to, I say, 'Let go of that too.' Let go on the left, let go on the right. Come back to the center, and you will arrive at the true Dharma. "
This, and various other stories about, and quotes from, Ajahn Chah show how dangerous it is to pick one of his quotes (such as the perennial: "The Dhamma of the Buddha is not found in books") and think of it as "Ajahn Chah's opinion". Ajahn Tiradhammo often says somthing along the lines of: Ajahn Chah didn't have opinions, there was just wisdom applying itself to the current situation.

And that's the great thing about a real-life teacher. As in the Ajahn Chah quote above they can see where you are having problems and tell you to stop doing dumb stuff...

Metta
Mike
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Mike thanks for the exact quote!
one thing though, the same could be said for quoting anything, or anyone! even the Suttas.
quotes are chosen, not necesarily for the reason the person said or wrote something but because it emphasises a point.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mikenz66
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by mikenz66 »

Manapa wrote:...the same could be said for quoting anything, or anyone! even the Suttas.
quotes are chosen, not necesarily for the reason the person said or wrote something but because it emphasises a point.
That is of course true, but in the Suttas there is quite a lot of consistency. At least in advice to particular types of people - the advice to monks is rather different from the advice to lay people.

And in Ajahn Chah's case this "left/right" thing can often be understood if you know a little about the background. For example, as I recall, one of the transcribed talks where he said that the Dhamma can't be found in books was addressed to someone who was an expert on Abhidhamma. On the other hand, he had Ajahn Brahm study Pali and do translations of parts of the Vinaya. It's likely that he had studied quite a lot in his several years as a monastic before he went off on his wanderings in 1946 so I would take his "no books" statements with a grain of salt.

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Mike
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

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This is true every monk would need to study to some degree in order to know the teachings, but as with the Book quote it may not of been said because the monk was an Abhiddhamma expert but because his understanding of the Dhamma wasn't becomming refined because he relied on the books, instead of using them as a tool, his Dhamma unlike the Buddhas came from Books.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mikenz66
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by mikenz66 »

Manapa wrote:... his Dhamma unlike the Buddhas came from Books.
Yes but don't forget that our Dhamma comes from the Buddha via either books or personal instruction...

Not having developed the paramis that the Buddha had, it is not possible to do it on our own...

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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by Sanghamitta »

mikenz66 wrote:
Manapa wrote:...the same could be said for quoting anything, or anyone! even the Suttas.
quotes are chosen, not necesarily for the reason the person said or wrote something but because it emphasises a point.
That is of course true, but in the Suttas there is quite a lot of consistency. At least in advice to particular types of people - the advice to monks is rather different from the advice to lay people.

And in Ajahn Chah's case this "left/right" thing can often be understood if you know a little about the background. For example, as I recall, one of the transcribed talks where he said that the Dhamma can't be found in books was addressed to someone who was an expert on Abhidhamma. On the other hand, he had Ajahn Brahm study Pali and do translations of parts of the Vinaya. It's likely that he had studied quite a lot in his several years as a monastic before he went off on his wanderings in 1946 so I would take his "no books" statements with a grain of salt.
Metta
Mike
You are quite right Mike66. When Luang Por Chahs remarks were widely reproduced he became concerned that they were being taken out of context by those who did not care for Sutta study etc. So he sought to redress the balance with analogies like the " left right " example above. He himself had a very thorough grasp of the Tripitaka, as does Luang Por Sumedho..

There are still some of us who were around when Luang Por addressed this issue, but who are not yet so decrepit that we forget what he said... :smile:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Sangha or Teacher: Which is Most Essential?

Post by Cittasanto »

mikenz66 wrote:
Manapa wrote:... his Dhamma unlike the Buddhas came from Books.
Yes but don't forget that our Dhamma comes from the Buddha via either books or personal instruction...

Not having developed the paramis that the Buddha had, it is not possible to do it on our own...

Metta
Mike
That is why Kalyanamittas are the whole of the path.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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