Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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christopher:::
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

Wow.

Forgive my ignorance on this topic but a number of things are starting to become clearer (i think). The insight vs. concentration distinction is very interesting. I think i've definitely leaned in Goldstein's direction all these years, but agree with you Mike, both are needed to make progress...

I will take this a bit out on a limb, and so don't mind being corrected... The method Ajahn Brahm describes is somewhat similar to that of zazen in Zen Buddhism, isn't it?

Jhana = Dhyana = Chan = Zen?

If so it might explain why I've always been such a lousy Zen practitioner- when it comes to long-term intensive zazen- and yet find mindfulness quite comfortable and helpful as an approach, and also the writings and insights of Zen patriarchs and teachers to be so sensible..!

Here's wikipedia's entry on Dhyana. How accurate is this?

:namaste:
Dhyāna in Buddhism

In the Theravada tradition
Main article: Jhāna


In the Pali Canon the Buddha describes eight progressive states of absorption meditation or jhāna. Four are considered to be meditations of form (rupa jhana) and four are formless meditations (arupa jhana). The first four jhānas are said by the Buddha to be conducive to a pleasant abiding and freedom from suffering (DN 22). The jhānas are states of meditation where the mind is free from the five hindrances (craving, aversion, sloth, agitation, doubt) and (from the second jhāna onwards) incapable of discursive thinking. The deeper jhānas can last for many hours. When a meditator emerges from jhāna, his or her mind is empowered and able to penetrate into the deepest truths of existence.

There are four deeper states of meditative absorption called the immaterial attainments. Sometimes these are also referred to as the "formless" jhānas, or arupajhana (distinguished from the first four jhānas, rupajhana). In the Buddhist canonical texts, the word jhāna is never explicitly used to denote them, but they are always mentioned in sequence after the first four jhānas. The enlightenment of complete dwelling in emptiness is reached when the eighth jhana is transcended.

Jhānas are normally described according to the nature of the mental factors which are present in these states

1. Movement of the mind onto the object, Vitakka (Sanskrit: Vitarka)
2. Retention of the mind on the object, Vicāra
3. Joy, Pīti (Sanskrit: Prīti)
4. Happiness, Sukha
5. Equanimity, Upekkhā (Sanskrit: Upekṣā)
6. One-pointedness, Ekaggatā (Sanskrit: Ekāgratā)[1]

Four progressive states of Jhāna:

1. First Jhāna (Vitakka, Vicāra, Pīti, Sukha, Ekaggatā): The five hindrances have completely disappeared and intense unified bliss remains. Only the subtlest of mental movement remains, perceivable in its absence by those who have entered the second jhāna. The ability to form unwholesome intentions ceases.
2. Second Jhāna (Pīti, Sukha, Ekaggatā): All mental movement utterly ceases. There is only bliss. The ability to form wholesome intentions ceases as well.
3. Third Jhāna (Sukha, Ekaggatā): One-half of bliss (joy) disappears.
4. Fourth Jhāna (Upekkhā, Ekaggatā): The other half of bliss (happiness) disappears, leading to a state with neither pleasure nor pain, which the Buddha said is actually a subtle form of happiness (more sublime than pīti and sukha). The Buddha described the jhānas as "the footsteps of the tathāgata". The breath is said to cease temporarily in this state.

Traditionally, this fourth jhāna is seen as the beginning of attaining psychic powers (abhigna).[

The scriptures state that one should not seek to attain ever higher jhanas but master one first, then move on to the next. "Mastery of jhana" involves being able to enter a jhana at will, stay as long as one likes, leave at will and experience each of the jhana factors as required. They also seem to suggest that lower jhana factors may manifest themselves in higher jhanas, if the jhanas have not been properly developed. The Buddha is seen to advise his disciples to concentrate and steady the jhana further.

In Mahayana traditions Buddhist Perfections

10 pāramī
dāna
sīla
nekkhamma
paññā
viriya
khanti
sacca
adhiṭṭhāna
mettā
upekkhā

6 pāramitā
dāna
sīla
kṣānti
vīrya
dhyāna
prajñā

The importance of dhyana in the Mahayana tradition can't be over emphasized. Dhyāna is the fifth of six pāramitās (perfections). It is usually translated as "concentration," "meditation," or "meditative stability." In China, the word dhyana was originally transliterated as chan-na (禅那; Mandarin: chánnà), and was eventually shortened to just chan (禅) by common usage.

Dhyana, usually under the related term of samadhi[3], together with the second and sixth paramitas are also known as the three essential studies, or threefold training, of Buddhism: moral precepts (sila), meditation (dhyana or samadhi), and wisdom (prajna). In Mahayana Buddhism no one can be said to be accomplished in Buddhism who has not successfully trained in all three studies.

When Buddhism was brought to China, the Buddhist masters tended to become more focused or primarily adept in one of the three studies. Vinaya masters were those who specialized in the monastic rules of discipline and the moral precepts (sila). Dharma masters were those who specialized in the wisdom teachings of the Sutras and Buddhist treatises (shastras). Dhyana or Chan masters were those who specialized in meditation practice and states of samadhi. Monks would often begin their training under one kind of master, such as a Vinaya master, and then transfer to another master, such as a Dharma master or a Dhyana master, to further their training and studies. At that time there was no separate school known as Chan.

Chan: The Dhyana School of China

According to tradition, Bodhidharma brought his lineage school of a line of dhyāna masters from India to China. After a somewhat disappointing interview with an Emperor in the south of China, Bodhidharma went into the north and resided in relative obscurity at the Shaolin Temple until several disciples found him. As it became more and more independent, popular and politically influential, the lineage school that was attributed to Bodhidharma became known as the Chan school in China and was transplanted to Korea as Seon, to Japan as Zen, and to Vietnam as Thiền.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by Moggalana »

There is some good information about jhanas on Leigh Brasington's site: http://www.leighb.com/jhanas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Including a short compendium about the various interpretations of jhana: http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond" and Shaila Catherine's "Focused and Fearless: A Meditator's Guide to States of Deep Joy, Calm, and Clarity" are also highly recommended.
You will encounter very different opinions about this topic, with each party emphasizing that their way is the only right way (not everyone does that though). There is also a book about samadhi ("The Experience of Samadhi") with several interviews (Jack Kornfield, Ajaan Thanissaro, Sharon Salzberg, Bhante Gunaratana, Christina Feldman, Leigh Brasington, Ajahn Brahm, Pa Auk Sayadaw) which gives a good overview of the broad spectrum of opinions.
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

Thanks for those suggestions, Moggalana.

"Focused and Fearless: A Meditator's Guide to States of Deep Joy, Calm, and Clarity"
sounds really good. As i was walking outside just now i was contemplating the relationship of mindfulness, concentration & upekkha to insight/clarity and the hindrances...

It's always seemed like the calmer I feel the happier and more appreciative i am about life. My ego makes less noise. Experiences flow smoothly and its like there's no need to grasp or push away anything. There's just this satisfaction with life moment-to-moment, just as it is...

When things click into place the dhamma is so wonderful.

Unfortunately- up till now at least- moments of peace and clarity like this rarely last...

Two amazing years when i first lived in Japan. Two years of deep calm in grad school... but since then its like these periods will last for a few hours, weeks or months and then something will happen and i'm back on samsara's treadmill again...

:tongue:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by Jechbi »

tiltbillings wrote:No one here is "evaluating" (and certainly not criticizing) ...
I never mentioned criticism. But certainly, there's no other way to describe your earlier post except to acknowledge that it constituted a form of evaluation of Blackbird's contemplation practice. In what respect would you say that your comment about his practice fails to rise to the level of an evaluation of it? Of his practice, you wrote: "There is nothing wrong with this. It is, however, still pretty much a conceptual practice." Clearly, that is an evaluation.
tiltbillings wrote:So, yes, you seemed to have missed something here ...
No, I don't think I did in this case. I feel as though now I'm defending myself here.

---

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:The connection I had in mind was that "conceptual" forms of meditation are only good up to the first jhana, and that upekkha is the trademark of the third jhana.
One wonders whether upekkha in any form is possible outside of jhana, for example, can we bring equanimity to the processes of driving a car, or to the process of engaging with colleagues at work? In other words, can we bring upekkha into our practice when we bring our practice out into the world?

Or would you regard upekkha as a narrow term in this context that only can be applied to its manifestation at some stage of meditative absorption?

In answer to the OP, I think one outcome of practicing the 8fold path is that it can strenghthen upekkha on and off the cushion.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by EOD »

BlackBird wrote:I think it's clear to say one does not need Jhana to achieve nibbana.
Hello,

I doubt that. The path leading to the cessation of dukkha (fourth noble truth) is the noble eightfold path. And one part of that path is right concentration. But right concentration is defined as the jhanas:
"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."

(Maha-satipatthana Sutta, DN 22)
If the jhanas were not really necessary, why should the Buddha include them in the path leading to the cessation of dukkha? If we start doubting that one part of the path is not really necessary, there is no reason to stop there. What about the other parts? Right speech for example. Unnecessary too? I don't think that this is an appropriate attitude towards the teachings.

There are many other suttas which indicate the necessity of jhana. I want to give only two more examples:

In the Mahamalunkya Sutta (MN 64) it is stated that the path to the destruction of the five lower fetters are the jhanas. Unfortunately I cannot find an English translation of that sutta in the moment.

And with regard to the five higher fetters it is stated:
"Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters. What five? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. The four jhanas are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning."

(Jhanasamyutta SN 9.53)
Some people base their argument for the dispensability of the jhanas for example on the Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) where the jhanas are not explicitly mentioned. But what about morality? It is also not explicitly mentiond in that sutta. Does this mean that morality is not necessary? Certainly not. One has to read more than one sutta to get a picture of the whole.

But I don't want to say that we have to master all the four jhanas in order to achieve nibbana or that we have to develop the jhanas "extra". I think they are a result of a correct practice.

Best wishes,

EOD
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by BlackBird »

EOD wrote:
BlackBird wrote:I think it's clear to say one does not need Jhana to achieve nibbana.
Hello

... [snip] ...


But I don't want to say that we have to master all the four jhanas in order to achieve nibbana or that we have to develop the jhanas "extra". I think they are a result of a correct practice.

Best wishes,

EOD
Glad to see we're on the same page then :tongue:

As for the rest, concentration may be developed to absorbtion jhana, or vipassana jhana (which I think) is based at an access-concentration stage. According to the Mahasi method, one does not need to develop absorbtion Jhana in order to achieve nibbana. One can go straight from access-concentration to mature Vipassana practise, using the methods employed in the style.

As for why the Buddha taught absorbtion Jhanas, perhaps it is because they are really really helpful?
EOD wrote:
If we start doubting that one part of the path is not really necessary, there is no reason to stop there. What about the other parts? Right speech for example. Unnecessary too? I don't think that this is an appropriate attitude towards the teachings.

...
But what about morality? It is also not explicitly mentiond in that sutta. Does this mean that morality is not necessary? Certainly not. One has to read more than one sutta to get a picture of the whole.
Don't extrapolate the debate over the degree of Right Concentration necessary, with the need for Right speech, and morality. That is flawed logic my friend.

In essense, you're taking this up with the wrong person. I think it would be best to speak to someone who has more experience with dry-vipassana, perhaps have a talk to the Venerable Bhikkhu Pesala about this, as he is quite learned on the subject.

Metta & :anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:No one here is "evaluating" (and certainly not criticizing) ...
I never mentioned criticism. But certainly, there's no other way to describe your earlier post except to acknowledge that it constituted a form of evaluation of Blackbird's contemplation practice. In what respect would you say that your comment about his practice fails to rise to the level of an evaluation of it? Of his practice, you wrote: "There is nothing wrong with this. It is, however, still pretty much a conceptual practice." Clearly, that is an evaluation.
tiltbillings wrote:So, yes, you seemed to have missed something here ...
No, I don't think I did in this case. I feel as though now I'm defending myself here.
Huh? You seem to be stuck on "evalution" here. If you want this to be an evaluation, then for you it is such. I thought I was looking for information in the context of the OP, which is vipassana and jhana practices. I did not say that you said I was criticizing. That was a parenthetical aside to clarify my intent. If you wish to comment on this further, then please do so via PM.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

EOD wrote: But I don't want to say that we have to master all the four jhanas in order to achieve nibbana or that we have to develop the jhanas "extra". I think they are a result of a correct practice.
I think this correct, but what is meant by jhana might not be all that clear as the first link in Moggalana's above msg makes clear. Also, in terms of the Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana tradition, it may not be as "dry" as as it first seems as my above links to the vipassana jhanas show.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by EOD »

BlackBird wrote:Don't extrapolate the debate over the degree of Right Concentration necessary, with the need for Right speech, and morality. That is flawed logic my friend.
I'm sorry, but don't think so. We surely agree that morality and concentration are not the same, but they belong to the same (noble eightfold) path. To question one part of that path could lead to questioning the path as a whole, i. e. its "eightfoldness". Maybe it was off-topic to bring morality in here. BTW: I'm not saying that you or anyone else here denies the necessity of morality (or even of right concentration as such). If you understood my posting this way I would like to apologize for that.

Best wishes

EOD
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by BlackBird »

EOD wrote:Maybe it was off-topic to bring morality in here. BTW: I'm not saying that you or anyone else here denies the necessity of morality (or even of right concentration as such). If you understood my posting this way I would like to apologize for that.

Best wishes

EOD
No, I don't interprete your posting in that way, so that's cool :smile:

I guess I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, because I've always held the Jhana's to be important. I just don't think we should go so far to say that the pursuing tranquility meditation to it's culmination is a necessary factor for enlightenment.

When I was on retreat earlier this year Venerable Ajahn Tiradhammo related a story to me about a Q&A session he had with the Venerable Ajahn Chah. Ajahn Ti asked Ajahn Chah how far one needed to develop calm meditation in order to practise vipassana. Ajahn Chah responded: "Calm enough."

:anjali:
Jack
Jechbi wrote: BlackBird, best wishes for success in your practice.
Thank you my friend, best wishes for success in your practise also :smile:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

BlackBird wrote:
I guess I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, because I've always held the Jhana's to be important. I just don't think we should go so far to say that the pursuing tranquility meditation to it's culmination is a necessary factor for enlightenment.

When I was on retreat earlier this year Venerable Ajahn Tiradhammo related a story to me about a Q&A session he had with the Venerable Ajahn Chah. Ajahn Ti asked Ajahn Chah how far one needed to develop calm meditation in order to practise vipassana. Ajahn Chah responded: "Calm enough."
That makes good sense, BlackBird. Though I would think as one gets closer and closer to deepest enlightenment the calm probably deepens as well, just naturally, organically...

Kind of related...
Jechbi wrote:
Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:The connection I had in mind was that "conceptual" forms of meditation are only good up to the first jhana, and that upekkha is the trademark of the third jhana.
One wonders whether upekkha in any form is possible outside of jhana, for example, can we bring equanimity to the processes of driving a car, or to the process of engaging with colleagues at work? In other words, can we bring upekkha into our practice when we bring our practice out into the world?

Or would you regard upekkha as a narrow term in this context that only can be applied to its manifestation at some stage of meditative absorption?

In answer to the OP, I think one outcome of practicing the 8fold path is that it can strenghthen upekkha on and off the cushion.
Hi Jechbi,

I see Retro hasn't come by yet. He just posted this though in another discussion, which I think relates...
retrofuturist wrote: Have you read...?

DN 22: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And from the Intro...
Translator's Introduction

The word "satipatthana" is the name for an approach to meditation aimed at establishing sati, or mindfulness. The term sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember or to keep in mind. It is sometimes translated as non-reactive awareness, free from agendas, simply present with whatever arises, but the formula for satipatthana doesn't support that translation. Non-reactive awareness is actually an aspect of equanimity, a quality fostered in the course of satipatthana. The activity of satipatthana, however, definitely has a motivating agenda: the desire for Awakening, which is classed not as a cause of suffering, but as part of the path to its ending (see SN 51.15). The role of mindfulness is to keep the mind properly grounded in the present moment in a way that will keep it on the path. To make an analogy, Awakening is like a mountain on the horizon, the destination to which you are driving a car. Mindfulness is what remembers to keep attention focused on the road to the mountain, rather than letting it stay focused on glimpses of the mountain or get distracted by other paths leading away from the road.
So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:

So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!
The thing is, however, you have to react, to pick and choose.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote:

So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!
The thing is, however, you have to react, to pick and choose.
React or respond?

I guess the question is what the translator meant with the phrase "non-reactive awareness"...
"The term sati is related to the verb sarati, to remember or to keep in mind. It is sometimes translated as non-reactive awareness, free from agendas, simply present with whatever arises, but the formula for satipatthana doesn't support that translation. Non-reactive awareness is actually an aspect of equanimity, a quality fostered in the course of satipatthana..."

Bikkhu Thanissaro
Picking and choosing seems to mesh with this just fine.

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!
I would tend to agree with this in some respects, with the caveat that reactions are probably going to keep on occurring, but that we also can bring some measure of equanimity to those very reactions, so that they don't feed themselves and deepen. Or at least not as much.

In my experience (and I suspect many others have had this same experience), perfect equanimity is not a realistic expectation at this stage, but some degree of equanimity is possible, even in those moments when a reaction has occurred. So for example instead of staying angry all day, we might come out of anger in just a few minutes, and then it's over with. In that respect, equanimity in its conventional sense does indeed seem to help with hindrances at the surface level. Maybe that's your experience as well?

:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote: Picking and choosing seems to mesh with this just fine.
It raises an interesting question betwen the world of zafu and the world of crossing the street.

I once said to you that the Hsin Hsin Ming was a meditation text, which I think it primarily is (but, of course, that may not be the only way to read it). Read it through carefully in that light. What is interesting is the transition between the zafu and your daily activities of brushing your teeth, interacting with people, being for something or against something, following the precepts.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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