Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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christopher:::
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

Jechbi wrote:Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:So, I think (if i understand correctly) mindfulness practice is very much about bringing equanimity (upekkha) out into the world, with a calm non-reactive awareness of everything we do...

Including car driving!
I would tend to agree with this in some respects, with the caveat that reactions are probably going to keep on occurring, but that we also can bring some measure of equanimity to those very reactions, so that they don't feed themselves and deepen. Or at least not as much.
Yes, definitely!
In my experience (and I suspect many others have had this same experience), perfect equanimity is not a realistic expectation at this stage, but some degree of equanimity is possible, even in those moments when a reaction has occurred. So for example instead of staying angry all day, we might come out of anger in just a few minutes, and then it's over with. In that respect, equanimity in its conventional sense does indeed seem to help with hindrances at the surface level. Maybe that's your experience as well?
Very much so. That's the "practice" of it. Over time the periods of anger/lust/etc last for shorter and shorter periods. Eventually you get to the point where the arising of emotion/thought (I'm gonna kill that &$#0*%) is there on the inside for a few seconds and then you almost laugh at it...

"What, you again?"

Interestingly I've been trying to help my wife and son with this, for years now. :tongue: But there is no way to teach this to anyone else if you aren't consistently practicing yourself, mastering this, in either the way Ajahn Brahm or Goldstein teaches....

Mastering and/or gaining insight into these elements of the deluded self...
tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote: Picking and choosing seems to mesh with this just fine.
It raises an interesting question between the world of zafu and the world of crossing the street.

I once said to you that the Hsin Hsin Ming was a meditation text, which I think it primarily is (but, of course, that may not be the only way to read it). Read it through carefully in that light. What is interesting is the transition between the zafu and your daily activities of brushing your teeth, interacting with people, being for something or against something, following the precepts.
Yes! Well, i think this is exactly what sati and zen mind are all about. We are cultivating mindfulness and equanimity on the cushion, almost like keeping your knife sharp as a butcher (sorry for the analogy).... But its then when we get off the zafu that this "mind" is really put to the test.

:meditate: :jedi:
Last edited by christopher::: on Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
Yes! Well, i think this is exactly what sati and zen mind are all about. We are cultivating mindfulness and equanimity on the cushion, almost like keeping your knife sharp as a butcher (sorry for the analogy).... But its then when we get off the zafu that this "mind" is really put to the test.
So, that is the question: how does zafu experience translate to crossing the street?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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christopher:::
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
So, that is the question: how does zafu experience translate to crossing the street?
The science of it, or the subjective experience?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
So, that is the question: how does zafu experience translate to crossing the street?
The science of it, or the subjective experience?
Either, if you wish. I am not so much actually asking you (or anyone) to answer this question in personal terms. I am simply posing the question because it is an interesting thing, and important thing, to look at. In our daily lives we are forced to respond to the continual input of our senses.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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christopher:::
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:I am not so much actually asking you (or anyone) to answer this question in personal terms. I am simply posing the question because it is an interesting thing, and important thing, to look at. In our daily lives we are forced to respond to the continual input of our senses.
Yes!

Two words come into mind for me right off- practice & priority...

Practice cause you get up with that knife sharpened and then Life throws all these curve balls at you... It's almost like that equanimity is at a level that decreases steadily. Some people have mastered this and are like hybrid cars, you can go for hours without needing fuel or a recharge. Others need to constantly cultivate equanimity throughout the day...

Cause when you don't... BAM... smash.... crasssssh..... Dukkha..!!!!

And priority cause its easy to de-prioritize the practice. So easy. A thousand things can keep you from monitoring your upekkha level...

Mindfulness- is all about making this a priority.

just my 2 cents.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
jhana.achariya

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by jhana.achariya »

BlackBird wrote:Venerable Pesala sums it up well
Venerable. Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Moral Kamma Producing Effects in the Realms of Form

These powerful wholesome kammas transcend the sensual realm. Sensual desire is one of the five hindrances to concentration, so to attain jhāna one has to overcome sensual thoughts. The jhānas are difficult to attain, and difficult to maintain. They are not usually attained when practising the pure insight method, but insight meditators do experience states comparable to jhāna. Insight cuts off defilements at the root, jhāna only cuts them off at the base, so insight meditation is preferable.
At the Pa Auk Forest Monastery for example (which draws much of it's basis from the authoritative texts) Jhanas are taught before mature insight practices. It's easy to understand why too, because the peace brought about by Samadhi (tranquility) practice provides a very stable ground for insight to arise.
Hello Jack

The authoritative texts do not separate jhana from insight. The Dhammapada states there is no jhana without wisdom & no wisdom without jhana. The Buddha's Noble Eightfold itself has Right View as the foundation of Right Concentration, which is defined as the four jhanas.

Venerable Pesala has sided with contemporary viewpoints but not with authoritative texts when separating jhana from insight.

The jhana discussed without insight is Wrong Concentration, arising from supression rather than born of wisdom.

In the same way, insight not leading to jhana is incomplete insight. Insight according to the authoritative texts leads to letting go and any letting go on the lower levels of insight (such as strem entry) leads directly to jhana.

Letting go is the foundation for jhana rather than the supression Venerable Pasala is proposing.

Jhana and insight support eachother when guided by Right View.

With Metta

J.A

:ugeek:
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

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jhana.achariya wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Venerable Pesala sums it up well
Venerable. Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Moral Kamma Producing Effects in the Realms of Form

These powerful wholesome kammas transcend the sensual realm. Sensual desire is one of the five hindrances to concentration, so to attain jhāna one has to overcome sensual thoughts. The jhānas are difficult to attain, and difficult to maintain. They are not usually attained when practising the pure insight method, but insight meditators do experience states comparable to jhāna. Insight cuts off defilements at the root, jhāna only cuts them off at the base, so insight meditation is preferable.
At the Pa Auk Forest Monastery for example (which draws much of it's basis from the authoritative texts) Jhanas are taught before mature insight practices. It's easy to understand why too, because the peace brought about by Samadhi (tranquility) practice provides a very stable ground for insight to arise.
Hello Jack

The authoritative texts do not separate jhana from insight. The Dhammapada states there is no jhana without wisdom & no wisdom without jhana. The Buddha's Noble Eightfold itself has Right View as the foundation of Right Concentration, which is defined as the four jhanas.

Venerable Pesala has sided with contemporary viewpoints but not with authoritative texts when separating jhana from insight.

The jhana discussed without insight is Wrong Concentration, arising from supression rather than born of wisdom.

In the same way, insight not leading to jhana is incomplete insight. Insight according to the authoritative texts leads to letting go and any letting go on the lower levels of insight (such as strem entry) leads directly to jhana.

Letting go is the foundation for jhana rather than the supression Venerable Pasala is proposing.

Jhana and insight support eachother when guided by Right View.

With Metta

J.A
Dear jhana.achariya

Could you please cite some material from the Canon for me to read, which supports your point?
Especially with this:
jhana.achariya wrote: The Dhammapada states there is no jhana without wisdom & no wisdom without jhana. The Buddha's Noble Eightfold itself has Right View as the foundation of Right Concentration, which is defined as the four jhanas.
As I have been led to believe that it is in fact Morality which is the foundation of Right Concentration[1] [2(pdf)] [3]

Venerable Bodhi puts it nicely:
Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: Both paths share certain preliminary requirements. For both, moral discipline must be purified, the various impediments must be severed, the meditator must seek out suitable instruction (preferrably from a personal teacher), and must resort to a dwelling conducive to practice. Once these preliminaries have been dispensed with, the meditator on the path of serenity has to obtain an object of meditation, something to be used as a focal point for developing concentration.
This is quite simply because when we engage in unharmonious activities, the mind becomes distracted, filled with worries. That is why the Buddha says:
"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.
- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... jhana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Furthermore there is the case where Jhana is achieved by non-practitioners of the Buddhist path. [4]
Do not forget the Buddha-to-be's first two teachers: Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta

How is it to be supposed that a non-practitioner of the Noble Eightfold Path, could attain to Jhana if Right View is the foundation of of Jhana (as you stated above)?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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mikenz66
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

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jhana.achariya wrote: The authoritative texts do not separate jhana from insight. The Dhammapada states there is no jhana without wisdom & no wisdom without jhana. The Buddha's Noble Eightfold itself has Right View as the foundation of Right Concentration, which is defined as the four jhanas.
...
Venerable Pesala has sided with contemporary viewpoints but not with authoritative texts when separating jhana from insight.
Actually, following "contemporary" (last century or so) Burmese teachers, he is siding with the Abhidhamma, the ancient commentaries, and the Visuddhimagga.

I'm guessing that you personally reject those sources, but it is misleading to call them "modern".

Metta
Mike
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by mikenz66 »

This article is relevant to this discussion:
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Conclusions and an Afterthought

Our study has led us to the following conclusions regarding the relationship between lay noble disciples and the jhānas.

(1) Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry -- the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower -- show them as being proficient in the jhānas. Though some suttas include the jhānas in the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition employed by the Nikāyas and need not be seen as having categorical implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring to the supramundane jhāna arisen within the supramundane path. Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including degrees of concentration short of the jhānas.

(2) All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhānas. This need not be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners already possess jhāna before they reach stream-entry. The formula for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually attain the jhānas in the course of developing the path to its culmination in arahantship. If we go along with the Commentaries in recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhānas included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. This still leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must develop the mundane jhānas in the preliminary phase of their practice.

(3) A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply that they do not possess the jhānas as meditative attainments which they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhānic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment.

(4) Several non-returners in the Nikāyas claim to possess all four jhānas, and according to the Mahāmāluṅkya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhāna is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non-returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhāna as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhānas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds.

(5) As non-returners have eliminated sensual lust and ill will, the main obstacles to jhānic attainment, they should face no major problems in entering the jhānas. The non-returner is similar to the ordinary jhāna-attainer in being bound for rebirth in the form realm. Unlike the latter, however, the non-returner is utterly free from sensual desire and ill will and thus can never fall back to the sensuous realm.

(6) Although in the Nikāyas the tie between the two attainments -- the jhānas and non-returnership -- is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding. Several suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning the jhānas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who gains all four jhānas with one who practises more austere types of meditation that do not typically lead to the jhānas.
Metta
Mike
jhana.achariya

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by jhana.achariya »

BlackBird wrote:Could you please cite some material from the Canon for me to read, which supports your point?
Dear Jack

Although you did not cite material from the Canon, I can cite some material from the Canon as you have requested:
372. Natthi jhānaṃ apaññassa, paññā natthi ajhāyato;
Yamhi jhānañca paññā ca, sa ve nibbānasantike.

372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration.
He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana.

Bhikkhuvagga
The Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions. Listen, and pay close attention. I will speak."

The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta
Are you satisfied with the above material from the Canon?

With metta

J.A.

:ugeek:
jhana.achariya

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by jhana.achariya »

BlackBird wrote:As I have been led to believe that it is in fact Morality which is the foundation of Right Concentration
Dear Jack

What you have been led to believe is not entirely correct. Jhana comes from abandoning the five hindrances. Morality alone cannot dissolve the five hindrances. Many human beings have ordained as monks & nuns, adhered to hundreds of precepts, but have been unable to dissolve the five hindrances.

In the Buddha's discourses in the Canon, such as Majjhima Nikaya 19 and 23, wisdom is held to be the means for dissolving the five hindrances.

In the Buddha's instruction on Satipatthana, mindfulness functions together with sampajanna. Sampajanna is of the faculty of wisdom.

In the Anupada Sutta, which is about jhana, the wisdom of Sariputta is emphasised.
The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight into mental qualities one after another. This is what occurred to Sariputta through insight into mental qualities one after another:
The quality of wisdom will influence the quality of jhana.

It is best to strive for Buddha-Jhana.

With metta

J.A.

:ugeek:
jhana.achariya

Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by jhana.achariya »

BlackBird wrote:How is it to be supposed that a non-practitioner of the Noble Eightfold Path, could attain to Jhana if Right View is the foundation of of Jhana (as you stated above)?
Dear Jack

A non-Buddhist gets stuck in jhana. Their jhana is not clear, lucid and effortless to negotiate (pass through) like the jhana of Sariputta.

It is important to understand jhana is just a signpost on the road indicating the mind has right practice. It is regarded in the same way as any aggregate, that is, an object of insight and non-attachment.

That non-attachment forms the foundation of practice is also stated in the Anapanasati Sutta:
And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops concentration as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.
The Noble Eightfold Path of the Buddha is seamless and one. It is not necessary to divide it into morality, concentration and insight. When the path is engaged, wisdom, morality and concentration function together. The Maha-salayatanika Sutta states:
"Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight.
So in Buddha-Jhana, morality is not developed separately. Usually, this kind of morality is imbued with attachment to self and lust for jhana. The Buddha advised there is morality with attachment and defilement and morality without attachment and defilement.
"And what is right action? Right action, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right action with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right action, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta
If morality is worldly morality, it will not form the foundation for jhana.

With metta

J.A.

:ugeek:
Last edited by jhana.achariya on Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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christopher:::
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by christopher::: »

So it sounds like the jhanas may not be something for layperson practitioners to worry too much about? I agree people can get stuck, I think that's what happens sometimes with Hindu meditation (which i started out with)...

I was probably very lucky that i was rarely ever able to bliss out. :tongue:
BlackBird wrote:Venerable Pesala sums it up well
Venerable. Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Moral Kamma Producing Effects in the Realms of Form

These powerful wholesome kammas transcend the sensual realm. Sensual desire is one of the five hindrances to concentration, so to attain jhāna one has to overcome sensual thoughts. The jhānas are difficult to attain, and difficult to maintain. They are not usually attained when practicing the pure insight method, but insight meditators do experience states comparable to jhāna. Insight cuts off defilements at the root, jhāna only cuts them off at the base, so insight meditation is preferable.

At the Pa Auk Forest Monastery for example (which draws much of it's basis from the authoritative texts) Jhanas are taught before mature insight practices. It's easy to understand why too, because the peace brought about by Samadhi (tranquility) practice provides a very stable ground for insight to arise.

Rereading this again, the above is quite interesting.

A question here, from a newcomer to these pali terms. How does samadhi differ from upekkha and from sati? I've noticed that sati, upekkha, jhana and samadhi are interconnected in various ways...

My present understanding (and please correct where wrong) is that upekkha is an aspect of everything we are talking about. Upekkha and sati are components of what we would call mindfulness practice, and lead to insight (vipassana).

Jhana and samadhi are related, but how that works is less clear to me...

I find it very interesting above that Venerable Pesala said:
The jhānas are difficult to attain, and difficult to maintain. They are not usually attained when practicing the pure insight method, but insight meditators do experience states comparable to jhāna. Insight cuts off defilements at the root, jhāna only cuts them off at the base, so insight meditation is preferable.
This is quite good news for those of us who find it difficult to train in formal Monastary situations. Satipatthana seems the way to go, for many. I have to get down and read what Retro passed on to me about it.

And of course, spend less time mentally masturbating online and more time ~*practicing*~!!

:coffee: :buddha1:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

jhana.achariya wrote: A non-Buddhist gets stuck in jhana. Their jhana is not clear, lucid and effortless to negotiate (pass through) like the jhana of Sariputta.
Interesting. Where is that written?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Jhana, Upekkha & the the 5 Hindrances

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote: A question here, from a newcomer to these pali terms. How does samadhi differ from upekkha and from sati? I've noticed that sati, upekkha, jhana and samadhi are interconnected in various ways...
I suggest making use of Ven Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ict.n2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
Mike
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