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Having put aside covetousness and grief.... - Dhamma Wheel

Having put aside covetousness and grief....

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

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phil
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Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby phil » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:48 am

Hi all

Hope you've been well over the last few months.

Could someone help clarify for me those words (see title) that appear near the beginning of the Satipatthana Sutta(s)? I have taken them to mean that some sort of precondition to satipatthana has been established, and I assume from the Pali that that must be pretty clear. But I heard a talk tonight in which the speaker (the wonderful Sayadaw U Silananda) said that no, it is to be understood that satipatthana removes covetousness and grief...

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me here. I should go have a look at the commentary, which I have, but it could be a good point to look at together...

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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appicchato
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby appicchato » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:06 pm

Hi Phil,

The precondition is being caught in Samsara...being born pretty much guarantees that there will be covetousness and grief somewhere (more like all the way) down the pike...unless (and until) we consciously set them aside...

My read is that while Satipattana may alleviate covetousness and grief only enlightenment will 'remove' them...

This is not to say the Venerable Sayadaw U Silananda is wrong, or that I disagree with him, just the way I 'see' things at this point in time...

Be well... :smile:

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retrofuturist
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:17 pm

Greetings Phil,

I understand that this refers to putting aside such distractions and engagement with the world in order to concentrate on the subject of one's meditation, namely, the four frames of reference.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Jechbi
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby Jechbi » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:06 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:40 pm

hi phil,
it could be said that putting aside covetousness and grief for the world is necessary in order to see the world as it is and thus remove the attachment for it.
If you click on the exploration in my signature there are further thoughts on this line and the rest of MN10 also there


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

phil
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby phil » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:47 am

Hi all

Thanks for your feedback. I had a look at the commentary, but it's tough to understand when one is in a hurry like I always am...

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Dmytro
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby Dmytro » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:50 am

Hi Phil,

'Vineyya' here does not mean complete removal. It refers to the removal of preliminary hindrances, mostly by cultivation of the opposite qualities.

""Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html

There are three main ways to abandon the unskilfull qualities:

- tadanga-pahana - by cultivating the opposite skillful qualities - on the stage of developing virtue;
- vikkhambhana-pahana - by cultivating jhanas - on the stage of developing concentration;
- samuccheda-pahana - by finding and removing the prerequisites of theor arising - on the stage of developing wisdom.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm

"Tadanga-pahana" is largely forgotten nowadays, and can be found in early texts like

Sallekha sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html

Patisambhidamagga http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html

It is the main instrument for preliminary removal of coarse hindrances.

Satipatthanas are practiced after the preliminary removal of hindrances:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html

Metta, Dmytro


phil
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby phil » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:10 am

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

jhana.achariya

Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby jhana.achariya » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:36 am


phil
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby phil » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:11 am

Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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mikenz66
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:20 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:29 am

Greetings Mike,

Yes, it was the Satipatthana commentary I was thinking of when I wrote the above.

I agree the tense is not particularly clear in the translation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:34 am


PeterB
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby PeterB » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:32 am

Perhaps a vicious circle has to have a point of entry for it to be broken..

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Dmytro
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby Dmytro » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:29 am



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catmoon
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby catmoon » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:07 am

I just don't get it. What is the point of this discussion? Is there some benefit in it, and if so, for who?

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mikenz66
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:00 am


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Dhammanando
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:27 am


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catmoon
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby catmoon » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:21 am


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sherubtse
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Re: Having put aside covetousness and grief....

Postby sherubtse » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:52 pm



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