In Dhamma there are no dhammas...appicchato wrote:There's only one Dhamma...everything else is a dhamma...kannada wrote:Dhammas are not dhammas but are called dhammas...
Refuge in Oneself
Re: Refuge in Oneself
Just a view - nothing more...
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Refuge in Oneself
This is Diamond Sutra stuff.appicchato wrote:There's only one Dhamma...everything else is a dhamma...kannada wrote:Dhammas are not dhammas but are called dhammas...
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Refuge in Oneself
Of course, it depends....kannada wrote:In Dhamma there are no dhammas...appicchato wrote:There's only one Dhamma...everything else is a dhamma...kannada wrote:Dhammas are not dhammas but are called dhammas...
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Refuge in Oneself
Only so as a conceptual structure. Reality of things seems to be a bit different.kannada wrote: In my view the best approach to practice is to drop the 'I' and 'other' notions... No 'I' that sees, just seeing. No 'I' that hears, just hearing etc etc Then drop the notions of 'seeing', 'hearing' etc. All in conformity with anatta. Couldn't be easier...
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- appicchato
- Posts: 1602
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: Bridge on the River Kwae
Re: Refuge in Oneself
Says you...tiltbillings wrote:This is Diamond Sutra stuff.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Refuge in Oneself
Says me.appicchato wrote:Says you...tiltbillings wrote:This is Diamond Sutra stuff.
I was referring to: Dhammas are not dhammas but are called dhammas...
You don't think so?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Refuge in Oneself
My earlier query (page 3) to Retro will explain its context.Tilt wrote:This is Diamond Sutra stuff.appicchato wrote:There's only one Dhamma...everything else is a dhamma...
On what? Under what circumstances are there dhammas in Dhamma?Tilt wrote:Of course, it depends....K wrote:In Dhamma there are no dhammas...
How?Tilt wrote:Only so as a conceptual structure. Reality of things seems to be a bit different.k wrote:In my view the best approach to practice is to drop the 'I' and 'other' notions... No 'I' that sees, just seeing. No 'I' that hears, just hearing etc etc Then drop the notions of 'seeing', 'hearing' etc. All in conformity with anatta. Couldn't be easier...
Just a view - nothing more...
Re: Refuge in Oneself
A wolf is just a wolf; it has no ego to protect or preserve; it has ‘no self’.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Refuge in Oneself
Are you really sure about that? When tired, sleep; when hungry, kill.kidd wrote:A wolf is just a wolf; it has no ego to protect or preserve; it has ‘no self’.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Refuge in Oneself
Yeah, well. No one is asking you to uncritically believe or accept anything, but the tradition rather strikes me as being a bit wiser than the position you are advocating.kannada wrote:Though I respect the body of works that constitute Buddhism I also have a healthy scepticism regarding authenticity, undisputable authenticity cannot be guaranteed.
Which is fine, but a practitioner of?I am a practitioner, not a believer.
Except both the Theravada and the Mahayana talk about conventional language and “ultimate” language, and understanding teachings in those terms.I do not see the teachings of Buddha-dharma as a series of levels.
And part of that methodology is the skilful use of language and the understanding that there are different ways of talking about the same thingI see them as a clearly defined methodology that produce certain results.
While the importance of anatta cannot be denied, it can be unskillfully emphasized.Anatta is a fact of Buddhist life and adherents of Buddhism should understand it accordingly. Without this understanding practice is a waste of time.
I think you are getting way, way too stuck on the expression of “taking refuge in oneself.”Refuge is taken in the Buddha, the Dharma and the sangha. There is no mention for taking refuge in oneself.
I do not think any one means it in any other way, and it is obvious that those who are talking about it here are well aware of anatta as the underlying “reality.”I assume the above quote to mean that the work of cessation cannot be performed on one's behalf by another. The work is performed by oneself, for oneself in order to remove the delusion of oneself.
I shrug my shoulders. I have said nothing that is not consistent with the Buddha’s teachings.I don't accept your theory of 'levels' if the teachings be competently taught.
You can play at that, imagine that you are doing that, but you cannot meaningfully will yourself to drop the “I” and “other.” It only meaningfully happens with insight into anicca, dukkha, and anatta, coming from the practices of morality and such things as dana and lovingkindness and concentrated mindfulness.In my view the best approach to practice is to drop the 'I' and 'other' notions...
Maybe easy for those few whose paramis are such, but for other it is a struggle and the Buddha outlined a path that allows one to progress towards awakening.No 'I' that sees, just seeing. No 'I' that hears, just hearing etc etc Then drop the notions of 'seeing', 'hearing' etc. All in conformity with anatta. Couldn't be easier...
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
-
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
- Location: By the River Thames near London.
Re: Refuge in Oneself
Christopher::: I dont think of upekkha as a strategy. It is a mindset cultivated and maintained by the practice of Mindfulness, and it then arises in the face of all situations that arise, attractive or aversive. And sees them as equally free of self and permanence. It is apriori to any given situation. This course takes a lot of time in various forms of anapanasati, or walking meditation etc to be an option for us. Of course we can let things go as they arise also, but from a consistent mind set of upekkha.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
- christopher:::
- Posts: 1327
- Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am
Re: Refuge in Oneself
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
Re: Refuge in Oneself
The ‘ego’ is an intellectualization of the experience of self-awareness; the ‘I’, the ‘self’ exists only in our minds; our notions of superiority and inferiority are figments of our imagination; we are, each and every one, simply, completely, and only, human beings; none of us is any more than this, none of us is any less. We spend our lives telling ourselves it is otherwise, wasting precious time and energy we could be spending seeing and enjoying the truth.
Re: Refuge in Oneself
What position did I advocate?Tilt wrote:the tradition rather strikes me as being a bit wiser than the position you are advocating.
Meditation.a practitioner of?
I don't see anything 'ultimate' about the said teachings, they are reasonably practical and straightforward.Except both the Theravada and the Mahayana talk about conventional language and “ultimate” language, and understanding teachings in those terms.
I agree, I have seen abundant examples of commentators who simply have no understanding of it.While the importance of anatta cannot be denied, it can be unskillfully emphasized.
What a coincidence – I thought the same about you.I think you are getting way, way too stuck on the expression of “taking refuge in oneself.”
Anatta is commensurate with cessation and cessation is not a reality, cessation is the absence of all 'realities' - Was that an example of an unskilful exposition?I do not think any one means it in any other way, and it is obvious that those who are talking about it here are well aware of anatta as the underlying “reality.”
You assume too much. I did not say anything about willing anything and I don't 'play' at anything.You can play at that, imagine that you are doing that, but you cannot meaningfully will yourself to drop the “I” and “other.” It only meaningfully happens with insight into anicca, dukkha, and anatta, coming from the practices of morality and such things as dana and lovingkindness and concentrated mindfulness.
Just a view - nothing more...
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Refuge in Oneself
One thing you are missing, kannada, this is the "Discovering Theravada" section, which is pretty much self explanatory by its title - "Discovering Theravada". What has become plainly obvious is that idiosyncratic posts do not quite fit here, since what you are posting is not necessarily Theravada. They are better off in the free-for-all section, where you are quite welcome post. I'll address your objections there. Your stuff here is going way out of the "Discovering Theravada" parameters.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723