Ananda's appeal to the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ananda's appeal to the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Post by tiltbillings »

Jechbi wrote:Good points. If it's not a legitimate text passage, then there's not much point in spending too much time with it, I guess.
I don't think it is quite like that. The use of mythic language and story is something all religions do - all religions - as a way of portraying how they understand themselves in relationship to others, the world in which they find themselves and the universe as a whole. There is a fair amount in the Pali suttas that takes the Brahmanical mythos and gives it a significant twist to make a Buddhist point, and in the process these things then become part of the Buddhist mythos.

There is the story about the monk going to the Brahma-realm asking the Brahma a question which Brahma finally, after much bluster, takes the monk aside and admits that he has no idea as to the answer of the question, but Brahma states that the Buddha knows. Did it really happen? Does it matter if it did or not for the point of the story to be made?
As an aside, I find it useful to approach these texts from the perspective of how they inform such things as recollection of the Buddha, recollection of the Dhamma, understanding with regard to practice, and so on. In other words, how they are useful as Dhamma instruction rather than whatever else we might wish them to be. In that respect, I would agree that the perspective of rote literalism can just get in the way.
That is reasonable.
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Jechbi
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Re: Ananda's appeal to the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Post by Jechbi »

tiltbillings wrote:The use of mythic language and story is something all religions do - all religions - as a way of portraying how they understand themselves in relationship to others ... Did it really happen? Does it matter if it did or not for the point of the story to be made?
Yes, I can see how this can be a useful way of reading texts. This particular tale about the conversation with Ananda, noted in the OP, doesn't seem like the same kind of mythic storytelling as the sutta about the monk who visits the Maha-Brahma. Without exerting too much imagination, it's easy to imagine the Ananda conversation actually occuring. I would suppose that each mythical story needs to be considered in its own context. And even then, there may be layers of meaning.
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Re: Ananda's appeal to the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

I find it strange that Walshe has "century", while the translation quoted in the original post refers to "world-period". I have not looked at the Pali yet, but I would guess that the word is "kappa" ( Skr. kalpa).This is an unimaginable period of time , hundreds of thousands of years.
This is part of the larger problem of the miracles of the Buddha. Do we read everything in a literal sense, or not?
Kind regards, Vincent.
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Re: Ananda's appeal to the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings vinasp,

Yes, the term in question is kappa.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Ananda's appeal to the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

vinasp wrote:Do we read everything in a literal sense, or not?
Best to know that words have more than one meaning, and consider the context.

Kappa in the PTS dictionary has many meanings. In this context I would tend to go with the meaning of full expected life-span — perhaps 120 years for the Buddha. The Buddha had already renounced the remaining portion of his lifespan at the request of Māra, so could not then go back on his word. The broad hints that he gave to Ānanda went unheeded.

Venerable Bakula is said to have lived for 160 years, but I wouldn't expect a human being to live until the end of the aeon, not even with the help of deep meditation. It would make the Buddha's teaching about impermanence seem rather implausible to us now if the Buddha was still alive and meditating in a cave somewhere.
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Jechbi
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Re: Ananda's appeal to the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Post by Jechbi »

Thank you, Bhante. Would you regard this sutta as a literal, historical account of a real conversation rather than as a fictional construction? Do you think it makes any difference?
:anjali:
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Re: Ananda's appeal to the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Post by balaputradeva »

I have some questions about this too.
As I can recall, this is maybe my first question arise when I start learn Buddha's teaching (Dhamma).
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Re: Ananda's appeal to the Buddha in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta

Post by confusedlayman »

He should have thought that buddha wont entertain eternalism or long life as he is already arhant... so ananda might have thought different.. im not sure
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