Refuge in Oneself

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby kannada » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:37 am

appicchato wrote:
kannada wrote:Dhammas are not dhammas but are called dhammas...


There's only one Dhamma...everything else is a dhamma...

In Dhamma there are no dhammas... :tongue:
Just a view - nothing more...
kannada
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:35 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:09 am

appicchato wrote:
kannada wrote:Dhammas are not dhammas but are called dhammas...


There's only one Dhamma...everything else is a dhamma...


This is Diamond Sutra stuff.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:10 am

kannada wrote:
appicchato wrote:
kannada wrote:Dhammas are not dhammas but are called dhammas...


There's only one Dhamma...everything else is a dhamma...

In Dhamma there are no dhammas...


Of course, it depends....
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:12 am

kannada wrote:In my view the best approach to practice is to drop the 'I' and 'other' notions... No 'I' that sees, just seeing. No 'I' that hears, just hearing etc etc Then drop the notions of 'seeing', 'hearing' etc. All in conformity with anatta. Couldn't be easier...


Only so as a conceptual structure. Reality of things seems to be a bit different.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby appicchato » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:This is Diamond Sutra stuff.


Says you...
User avatar
appicchato
 
Posts: 1576
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:40 am

appicchato wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:This is Diamond Sutra stuff.


Says you...


Says me.

I was referring to: Dhammas are not dhammas but are called dhammas...

You don't think so?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby kannada » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:52 am


Tilt wrote:
appicchato wrote:There's only one Dhamma...everything else is a dhamma...

This is Diamond Sutra stuff.

My earlier query (page 3) to Retro will explain its context.

Tilt wrote:
K wrote:In Dhamma there are no dhammas...

Of course, it depends....

On what? Under what circumstances are there dhammas in Dhamma?

Tilt wrote:
k wrote:In my view the best approach to practice is to drop the 'I' and 'other' notions... No 'I' that sees, just seeing. No 'I' that hears, just hearing etc etc Then drop the notions of 'seeing', 'hearing' etc. All in conformity with anatta. Couldn't be easier...

Only so as a conceptual structure. Reality of things seems to be a bit different.

How?
Just a view - nothing more...
kannada
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:35 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby kidd » Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:38 am

A wolf is just a wolf; it has no ego to protect or preserve; it has ‘no self’.

:juggling:
kidd
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:20 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:33 am

kidd wrote:A wolf is just a wolf; it has no ego to protect or preserve; it has ‘no self’.


Are you really sure about that? When tired, sleep; when hungry, kill.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:20 am

kannada wrote:Though I respect the body of works that constitute Buddhism I also have a healthy scepticism regarding authenticity, undisputable authenticity cannot be guaranteed.


Yeah, well. No one is asking you to uncritically believe or accept anything, but the tradition rather strikes me as being a bit wiser than the position you are advocating.

I am a practitioner, not a believer.


Which is fine, but a practitioner of?

I do not see the teachings of Buddha-dharma as a series of levels.


Except both the Theravada and the Mahayana talk about conventional language and “ultimate” language, and understanding teachings in those terms.

I see them as a clearly defined methodology that produce certain results.


And part of that methodology is the skilful use of language and the understanding that there are different ways of talking about the same thing

Anatta is a fact of Buddhist life and adherents of Buddhism should understand it accordingly. Without this understanding practice is a waste of time.


While the importance of anatta cannot be denied, it can be unskillfully emphasized.

Refuge is taken in the Buddha, the Dharma and the sangha. There is no mention for taking refuge in oneself.


I think you are getting way, way too stuck on the expression of “taking refuge in oneself.”

I assume the above quote to mean that the work of cessation cannot be performed on one's behalf by another. The work is performed by oneself, for oneself in order to remove the delusion of oneself.
I do not think any one means it in any other way, and it is obvious that those who are talking about it here are well aware of anatta as the underlying “reality.”

I don't accept your theory of 'levels' if the teachings be competently taught.
I shrug my shoulders. I have said nothing that is not consistent with the Buddha’s teachings.

In my view the best approach to practice is to drop the 'I' and 'other' notions...
You can play at that, imagine that you are doing that, but you cannot meaningfully will yourself to drop the “I” and “other.” It only meaningfully happens with insight into anicca, dukkha, and anatta, coming from the practices of morality and such things as dana and lovingkindness and concentrated mindfulness.

No 'I' that sees, just seeing. No 'I' that hears, just hearing etc etc Then drop the notions of 'seeing', 'hearing' etc. All in conformity with anatta. Couldn't be easier...


Maybe easy for those few whose paramis are such, but for other it is a struggle and the Buddha outlined a path that allows one to progress towards awakening.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:42 am

Christopher::: I dont think of upekkha as a strategy. It is a mindset cultivated and maintained by the practice of Mindfulness, and it then arises in the face of all situations that arise, attractive or aversive. And sees them as equally free of self and permanence. It is apriori to any given situation. This course takes a lot of time in various forms of anapanasati, or walking meditation etc to be an option for us. Of course we can let things go as they arise also, but from a consistent mind set of upekkha.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Sanghamitta
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby christopher::: » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:29 am

Hi Valerie,

I responded to you over here...

Cultivating upekkha (equanimity) day-to-day

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
christopher:::
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby kidd » Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:06 am

The ‘ego’ is an intellectualization of the experience of self-awareness; the ‘I’, the ‘self’ exists only in our minds; our notions of superiority and inferiority are figments of our imagination; we are, each and every one, simply, completely, and only, human beings; none of us is any more than this, none of us is any less. We spend our lives telling ourselves it is otherwise, wasting precious time and energy we could be spending seeing and enjoying the truth.

:juggling:
kidd
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:20 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby kannada » Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:23 pm

Tilt wrote:the tradition rather strikes me as being a bit wiser than the position you are advocating.

What position did I advocate?

a practitioner of?

Meditation.

Except both the Theravada and the Mahayana talk about conventional language and “ultimate” language, and understanding teachings in those terms.

I don't see anything 'ultimate' about the said teachings, they are reasonably practical and straightforward.

While the importance of anatta cannot be denied, it can be unskillfully emphasized.

I agree, I have seen abundant examples of commentators who simply have no understanding of it.

I think you are getting way, way too stuck on the expression of “taking refuge in oneself.”

What a coincidence – I thought the same about you.

I do not think any one means it in any other way, and it is obvious that those who are talking about it here are well aware of anatta as the underlying “reality.”

Anatta is commensurate with cessation and cessation is not a reality, cessation is the absence of all 'realities' - Was that an example of an unskilful exposition?

You can play at that, imagine that you are doing that, but you cannot meaningfully will yourself to drop the “I” and “other.” It only meaningfully happens with insight into anicca, dukkha, and anatta, coming from the practices of morality and such things as dana and lovingkindness and concentrated mindfulness.

You assume too much. I did not say anything about willing anything and I don't 'play' at anything.
Just a view - nothing more...
kannada
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:35 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:34 pm

One thing you are missing, kannada, this is the "Discovering Theravada" section, which is pretty much self explanatory by its title - "Discovering Theravada". What has become plainly obvious is that idiosyncratic posts do not quite fit here, since what you are posting is not necessarily Theravada. They are better off in the free-for-all section, where you are quite welcome post. I'll address your objections there. Your stuff here is going way out of the "Discovering Theravada" parameters.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby kannada » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:47 pm

tiltbillings wrote:One thing you are missing, kannada, this is the "Discovering Theravada" section, which is pretty much self explanatory by its title - "Discovering Theravada". What has become plainly obvious is that idiosyncratic posts do not quite fit here, since what you are posting is not necessarily Theravada. They are better off in the free-for-all section, where you are quite welcome post. I'll address your objections there. Your stuff here is going way out of the "Discovering Theravada" parameters.

Suits me, I was only replying to your comments...
Just a view - nothing more...
kannada
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:35 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:50 pm

kannada wrote:Suits me, I was only replying to your comments...


The difference is that my comments were well within the framework of the Theravada and the Pali sources.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby Jechbi » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:12 pm

At this stage the thread probably should be moved to the "Dhammic Free-for-all" forum.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Jechbi
 
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:19 pm

Jechbi wrote:At this stage the thread probably should be moved to the "Dhammic Free-for-all" forum.



There is no need for the thread to move. The OP question is legitimate within a Theravadin context, and a fair number of the replies are solidly within theTheravadin context, such as Chris' quotation of the Dhammapada, my first lengthy response and others. If kannada wants to discuss his particular take on things, he can do so in the appropriate forum. This should have been done sooner, but this thread has not been pushed too far afield, necessitating it to be moved.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Refuge in Oneself

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:23 pm

Please keep to the topic. There is no further need for a meta-discussion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19303
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

PreviousNext

Return to Discovering Theravāda

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests