Questions about stream-winners

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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vinasp
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Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

This is about stream-winners according to the five Nikaya's, but I thought I would put it here since my understanding of the teachings could be thought to be wrong by many people. I have three questions:

1. Is there a way in which one can know for certain that one is a stream-winner?

2. If you knew that you were a stream-winner, would you admit it to others on a forum such as this one?

3. Could some modern followers of Theravada Buddhism be stream-winners without knowing it?

Kind regards, Vincent.
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BlackBird
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by BlackBird »

Dear Vincent

This (fairly recent) topic here may be of interest:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1677" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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DNS
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by DNS »

vinasp wrote: 1. Is there a way in which one can know for certain that one is a stream-winner?
Based on my understanding from the texts of those who have attained the noble states:

Yes, it is earth-shattering enough that you would know. It includes a 'glimpse' of Nibbana and the 'opening' of the Dhamma eye, thus, one would know. One would not need to ask or seek approval from others or seek 'certification' from others.
2. If you knew that you were a stream-winner, would you admit it to others on a forum such as this one?
No, see response above.
3. Could some modern followers of Theravada Buddhism be stream-winners without knowing it?
No, see response above. They would know it.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

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I prety much agree with the Dhamma's responce except number 2?? not needing certification from and declaring are two different things in my mind, part of my signature is an adaption of what a lay stream winner can say on attaining that level according to the suttas, it is more of a case that they would say it and carry on with other things rather than saying and try to prove it.
just my take on that question.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by DNS »

Manapa wrote:I prety much agree with the Dhamma's responce except number 2?? not needing certification from and declaring are two different things in my mind, part of my signature is an adaption of what a lay stream winner can say on attaining that level according to the suttas, it is more of a case that they would say it and carry on with other things rather than saying and try to prove it.
just my take on that question.
Ah, okay, I see what you mean, if a practitioner wanted to confirm his/her attainment with a teacher. That could be helpful, but what if the practitioner becomes a noble one and the teacher is not? :tongue:

Best to find a teacher who is well advanced and developed in the Dhamma, but sometimes not an easy task. But I suppose a good teacher could still respond based on his/her understanding of the texts and the sayings/actions of past noble ones.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by Cittasanto »

TheDhamma wrote:
Manapa wrote:I prety much agree with the Dhamma's responce except number 2?? not needing certification from and declaring are two different things in my mind, part of my signature is an adaption of what a lay stream winner can say on attaining that level according to the suttas, it is more of a case that they would say it and carry on with other things rather than saying and try to prove it.
just my take on that question.
Ah, okay, I see what you mean, if a practitioner wanted to confirm his/her attainment with a teacher. That could be helpful, but what if the practitioner becomes a noble one and the teacher is not? :tongue:

Best to find a teacher who is well advanced and developed in the Dhamma, but sometimes not an easy task. But I suppose a good teacher could still respond based on his/her understanding of the texts and the sayings/actions of past noble ones.
Hi
if the teacher is a worthy friend then the relationship only partly changes :tongue: I have an image of a mountain climb where the climbers help eachother to get to the top.
if the 'teacher' isn't then the noble student would be able to tell and move on, even our worst enemies, or those who are not truly teachers of Dhamma can teach us true Dhamma if we attend appropriately (I guess)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi Blackbird,

Thanks for the link to the other thread. I did read it a few days ago, but I forgot where it was. That is a good thread and a link to it here will be useful. I would like to try a different approach on this thread.
What if one reads everything about stream-winners and still one does not understand. Are the teachings complete? Are they holding something back? People today expect a teaching to explain things, not to stop short just when it gets to the essential thing. Perhaps they are leaving an important step for us to understand for ourselves. Or it could be to enable them to test those who claim to have become stream-winners. It could even be essential things are missing in order to prevent the teachings from being stolen. You need the "keys" as well.

kind regards, Vincent.
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Greetings TheDhamma,

Thank you for your interesting reply. What I had in mind with question 1 was more to do with ones understanding of the teachings. That a proper understanding of the teachings leaves no room for doubt about where one is on the path. On the opening of the Dhamma eye, it may be a metaphor which is only used for sudden, rather than gradual realization. As for the glimpse of nibbana I think that it is more than a glimpse. It is a permanent move closer to the enlightened state of mind. A permanent reduction in the amount of dukkha.
On my question 3 , I was thinking of people who have an insight into the truth of no-self , but are confused by the complexity of the teachings. They could be at the level of a stream-winner but their confusion about the teachings needs to be removed.
I think we are in agreement that "true" stream-winners would know it. It seems that insight into no-self and a correct understanding of the teachings are both required.
Kind regards, Vincent.
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Could it be that in looking up all the passages about stream-winners we are missing something? There is also the distinction between the puthujjana and the ariya savaka. Some things which are said about the ariya savaka might be applicable to the stream-winner. My own view is that the transition from puthujjana to ariya savaka is the same thing as becoming a stream-winner. ( I could be wrong about this ). Also there is the term sekha which seems to refer to someone on the noble eightfold path, which would include the stream-winner. And dont forget that the path is the stream so winning the stream and attaining the path are the same thing. Does this make any sense?

Kind regards, Vincent.
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by BlackBird »

Dear Vincent

Perhaps this might be of interest:

"Teaching and Training" - Ven. Bhikkhu Moneyya
http://paauk.org/files/tt_web_03mar07.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you want to get to the heart of the matter.

Metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
vinasp
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The difficulty I have in making sense of the stream-winner is shown by the following question:
Has the stream-winner completely eliminated sakkaya ditthi ? It looks like a simple, harmless question does it not ? It is a simple question, in fact there can only be two answers : yes he has, or no he has not. But it is not harmless. If your understanding of the teachings is wrong then this question can be very troubling. In fact, whichever answer you choose you run into big problems. What is your answer ? And please, answer from your own understanding , do not just give me a link to something online written by someone else.
Best wishes, Vincent.
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BlackBird
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

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vinasp wrote:And please, answer from your own understanding , do not just give me a link to something online written by someone else.
May I ask, are you here to better your understanding of the Dhamma? Or here to debate your views with others?

...For one who's involved gets into disputes over doctrines, but how — in connection with what — would you argue with one uninvolved? He has nothing embraced or rejected, has sloughed off every view right here — every one.
- Snp 4.3 Dutthatthaka Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Monks, there are these seven obsessions.1 Which seven?

"(1) The obsession of sensual passion.

"(2) The obsession of resistance.

"(3) The obsession of views.

"(4) The obsession of uncertainty.

"(5) The obsession of conceit.

"(6) The obsession of passion for becoming.

"(7) The obsession of ignorance.

"These are the seven obsessions."
- AN 7.11 Anusaya Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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mikenz66
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by mikenz66 »

vinasp wrote:And please, answer from your own understanding , do not just give me a link to something online written by someone else.
This request really makes no sense, since all (most?) of us are relying on writings for an understanding of stream entry.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... C4%81panna" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Relevant Extract:
I: Through the path of Stream-winning sotāpatti-magga one becomes free whereas in realizing the fruition, one is freed from the first 3 mental chains samyojana, which bind beings to existence in the sense-sphere, to wit:
1: Personality-belief sakkāya-ditthi, see. ditthi,
2: Skeptical doubt vicikicchā,
3: Clinging upādāna to mere rules and rituals sīlabbata-parāmāsa.
One has maximally 7 rebirth rounds before Awakening and cannot be reborn
as animal, ghost, demon or hell-being.
...
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ya-puggala" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sotāpanna: the 'Stream-winner', is the lowest of the 8 Noble Disciples see: ariya-puggala Three kinds are to be distinguished: the one 'with 7 rebirths at the utmost' sattakkhattu-parama, the one 'passing from one noble family to another' kolankola the one 'germinating only once more' eka-bījī As it is said e.g. Pug. 37-39; A. III, 87:

1;If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 mental chains personality-belief, skeptical doubt, attachment to rules and ritual; see: samyojana has entered the stream to Nibbāna, he is no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, is firmly established, destined to full enlightenment. After having passed amongst the divine and human beings only seven times more through the round of rebirths, he puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one with 7 births at the utmost' sattakkhattu-parama.

2;If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 mental chains. is destined to full enlightenment, he, after having passed among noble families two or three times through the round of rebirths, puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one passing from one noble family to another' kolankola.

3;If a man, after the disappearance of the 3 mental chains. is destined to full enlightenment, he, after having only once more returned to human existence, puts an end to suffering. Such a man is called 'one germinating only once more' eka-bījī See Sotāpatti-Samyutta S. LV.
The Sutta quotes seem reasonably clear.

Only an Arahant has abandoned ignorance (avijjā). http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... vijj%C4%81" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perhaps you are confusing this with sakkāya-ditthi?

Metta
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vinasp
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi mikenz66,

Of course we are all relying on writings, I meant ones understanding from what one has read, that is all. My problem is the large number of sutta's which seem to show those on the noble eightfold path still working on eliminating sakkaya ditthi. This includes those beyond stream-winners, for example non-returners. How can this be so if the stream-winner has already eliminated sakkaya ditthi ? The passages which you quote seem to be saying that the stream-winner has eliminated sakkaya ditthi. But such a view directly contradicts a large number of discourses. Have I mis-understood what sakkaya ditthi is ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by DNS »

vinasp wrote: My problem is the large number of sutta's which seem to show those on the noble eightfold path still working on eliminating sakkaya ditthi. This includes those beyond stream-winners, for example non-returners.
An anagami still working on eliminating sakkaya-ditthi? I don't think that is possible. Can you show us the reference?
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