Questions about stream-winners

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

This is MN 44 PTS M i 299 Translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu from : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary. Then Visakha the lay follower went to Dhammadinna the nun and, on arrival, having bowed down to her, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to her, "'Self-identification, self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."

Saying, "Yes, lady," Visakha the lay follower delighted & rejoiced in what Dhammadinna the nun had said. Then he asked her a further question: "'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"'The way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification, the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"Precisely this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration: This, friend Visakha, is the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"Is it the case, lady, that clinging is the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates or is it something separate?"

"Friend Visakha, neither is clinging the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."

"But, lady, how does self-identification come about?"

"There is the case, friend Visakha, where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He assumes feeling to be the self...

"He assumes perception to be the self...

"He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self...

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identification comes about."

"But, lady, how does self-identification not come about?"

"There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He does not assume feeling to be the self...

"He does not assume perception to be the self...

"He does not assume fabrications to be the self...

"He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identification does not come about."

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by mikenz66 »

vinasp wrote: Yes, it's book 3 The book of aggregates. Division I the root fifty. Section V. number 48 . Title : Aggregates. Page 886.
Interestingly, Venerable Bodhi says he lost the article he refers to in the footnote!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/26007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Steve- khandhas, upadaanakkhandhas & B.Bodhi's comments

Hi Steve,

Your Qu received the most detailed response!

Sarah: Qu regarding the obtaining an article of yours
referred to in Note 65 of Khandhavagga:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/18775" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
*****

B.Bodhi:
>My paper on "Aggregates and Clinging Aggregates" was published in a
defunct journal, The Pali Buddhist Review, in c. 1976. I don't have a copy
of the paper. My basic argument there was: (1) the only sutta that
explicitly distinguishes between khandhas and upadaanakkhandhas is SN 22:
48. There the latter are defined in the same way as the former *except*
that they are each said to be 'saasava upaadaaniya' ("with taints, subject
to clinging"). It would follow that there must then be aggregates that are
anaasava anupaadaaniya (without taints, not subject to clinging).
Intuitively, these would seem to be the aggregates of the arahant.
However, no such statement can be found in the Nikayas. I then turned to
the Dhammasangani enumeration of 'saasava dhammas' and 'anaasava dhammas',
and 'upaadaaniya dhammas' and 'na upaadaaniya dhammas'. I found that Dhs
classifies the arahant's ordinary cittas and cetasikas under 'saasava' and
'upaadaaniya'. The only khandhas considered 'anaasava' and 'na
upaadaaniya' are the mental khandhas (cittas and cetasikas) of the four
maggas and phalas. All rupas are tainted and subject to clinging. I then
went on to explore the significance of this for an understanding of the
Dhamma; but without the paper I can't recapitulate what I wrote over 25
years ago. The old "Pali Buddhist Review" subsequently merged with another
scholarly journal to become the "Buddhist Studies Review". If you can
track this down on the web, perhaps they have back issues available and
you can find that article. Or perhaps the paper itself is on the web. Just
look for the above title.<
*****
Metta,

Sarah
p.s If there is anything anyone would particularly like me to bring to
BB’s attention (preferably with no urgency), please post and indicate.
=================
Mike
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Just some notes on MN 44. The Bhikkhu Bodhi translation seems better to me, if you have access to it. The term translated here as "Self - identification" is sakkaya in the Pali. The five clinging aggregates are called sakkaya. Note that the origination of sakkaya ( five clinging aggregates ) is craving. The wording is identical to the four noble truths. In fact the first truth ends with the words " ...in brief the five clinging aggregates are suffering". So suffering and the five clinging aggregates are the same thing. The cessation of sakkaya ( five clinging aggregates - suffering ) is the cessation of craving. The path which leads to this is the noble eightfold path. Therefore those who have completed the noble eightfold path no longer have suffering or sakkaya - the five clinging aggregates.
How does sakkaya ( five clinging aggregates - suffering ) come to be ? By seeing a self. How does sakkaya not come to be ? By not seeing a self.

Best wishes, Vincent.
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi Mike,

Yes. Thanks for that, most interesting. I think bhikkhu Bodhi is probably right in that it is the only sutta which clearly makes that distinction. I suspect it might be a later sutta. It might even be trying to smooth over contradictions between suttanta and the abhidhamma. Or it could be genuine.

I think that there are two sets of aggregates, but the reason I believe this involves advanced topics which I have not spoken of yet. Such as the higher path beyond the noble eightfold path, which I do not know if Bhikkhu Bodhi was/is aware of.

Are you saying that you do not accept those definitions ? Or that they are problematic ?
On Bhikkhu Bodhi's old article, I have some quotations from it if you are interested.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by cooran »

Hello vinasp,
vinasp says: ...the higher path beyond the noble eightfold path, which I do not know if Bhikkhu Bodhi was/is aware of.


A higher path beyond the Noble Eightfold Path?
and Bhikkhu Bodhi isn't aware of this?

Please say a lot more about this vinasp. I am very interested in hearing about it. Particularly where the Buddha taught this higher path and to whom.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,
vinasp wrote: Are you saying that you do not accept those definitions ? Or that they are problematic ?
On Bhikkhu Bodhi's old article, I have some quotations from it if you are interested.
I don't have any particular issues with any of this. I tend to start from the Commentarial view and the "standard modern" interpretations, such as Venerable Nyanatiloka, Bodhi, etc, and if there appears to be a contradiction try to first see where I might be confused.

You stared this thread asking about the attainments of stream enterers. It was an off-shoot that we got into a discussion about Arahants and aggregates, and as I said, it seems clear that an Arahant has aggregates before parinibbana. Whether there are two kinds of aggregates or whether it is just that the Arahant is not clinging to the aggregates (which is the way I would be inclined to view it) is obviously a highly technical issue that I don't have expertise to resolve.


Metta
Mike
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Vincent,
vinasp wrote:That the Buddha needs to give two separate definitions here shows clearly that there are two sets of aggregates.
Maybe the focus belongs on asavas rather than on aggregates?

(btw, there's some discussion here that might be on-topic.)
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi Chris,

You say that you would like to know more about the higher path. Can you tell me how many asava's there are ? And how many are eliminated by the noble eightfold path ? Lets call this clue number one.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by Jechbi »

vinasp wrote:Lets call this clue number one.
It probably would be more helpful if you could come right out and say whatever it is you'd like to convey, instead of hinting around.
:thanks:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi Mike,

Thanks. I think I understand your position better now. I do not really mind what we talk about. I do not think that the Dhamma can be divided into " topics", it is an unbroken whole. To understand one part correctly requires a correct understanding of all the other parts.
You say : " ... it seems clear that an arahant has aggregates before parinibbana." But what are aggregates ? And what is parinibbana ? Both terms are open to alternative interpretations.
On whether there are two kinds of aggregates, or two sets of aggregates. I think that there are, but I would have to explain many things in order to give my reasons. The passage which I quoted ( S. iii, 47-48 ) perhaps does not establish that there are two sets. It is open to interpretation. I do not think that this should be seen as a highly technical issue. The teachings on the aggregates are confusing. One has to sort out ones own confusion by choosing how one understands the aggregates. The definition of rupa in the passage quoted, for example, would seem to include every physical thing that one can think of, and not just one's own body. It seems to be the entire physical world ! But does it mean actual physical things, or something else ?
About the arahant not clinging I will address that in a separate post.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by cooran »

Hello vinasp,
vinasp says: ...the higher path beyond the noble eightfold path, which I do not know if Bhikkhu Bodhi was/is aware of.
Chris said: A higher path beyond the Noble Eightfold Path?
and Bhikkhu Bodhi isn't aware of this?
vinasp said: You say that you would like to know more about the higher path. Can you tell me how many asava's there are ? And how many are eliminated by the noble eightfold path ? Lets call this clue number one.
This is what I have been taught:

āsava
(lit: influxes), 'cankers', taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases.
There is a list of four (as in D. 16, Pts.M., Vibh.):
the canker of sense-desire (kāmāsava)
of (desiring eternal) existence (bhavāsava)
of (wrong) views (ditthāsava)
of ignorance (avijjāsava)
A list of three, omitting the canker of views, is possibly older and is more frequent in the Suttas, e.g. in M.2, M.9, D.33; A.III.59, 67; A.VI.63.
In Vibh. (Khuddakavatthu Vibh.) both the 3-fold and 4-fold division are mentioned. The fourfold division also occurs under the name of 'floods' (ogha) and 'yokes' (yoga).
Through the path of Stream-Entry, the canker of views is destroyed; through the path of Non-Returning, the canker of sense-desire; through the path of Arahantship, the cankers of existence and ignorance. M. 2 shows how to overcome the cankers, namely, through insight, sense-control, avoidance, wise use of the necessities of life, etc. For a commentarial exposition, see Atthasālini Tr. I, p. 63f: II, pp. 475ff.
Khīnāsava, 'one whose cankers are destroyed', or 'one who is canker-free', is a name for the Arahat or Holy One. The state of Arahantship is frequently called āsavakkhaya, 'the destruction of the cankers'. Suttas concluding with the attainment of Arahantship by the listeners, often end with the words: "During this utterance, the hearts of the Bhikkhus were freed from the cankers through clinging no more" (anupādāya āsavehi cittāni vimuccimsū'ti).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/aasava.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is your understanding? And how does this support your statement about a "higher" path that Bhikkhu Bodhi may not even know about?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi Jechbi,

Thanks for joining in the discussion. I am not sure why you think we should focus on asava's rather than the aggregates.
Thank you for the link to the book by Mathieu Boisvert. I already have it, but i did not know that the text was online. That might be of interest to anyone following this thread. Although I must admit I do not agree with Boisvert's conclusions.
On the question of why I am giving hints, rather than just saying what I mean. Perhaps you are very open to radical ideas about the Buddha's teaching. Are you sure that others are as open-minded as you are ? PM me if you want a more explicit information about the higher path. I am trying not to upset or disturb people.

Best wishes, Vincent.
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Hi Chris,

You did not answer my questions, but those links will be helpful to those following this thread. Here is the problem with the asava's. In DN 16. 1.12 The Buddha speaks of four asavas, this passage is then repeated , I think, seven times.
See : 1.14 , 1.18 , 2.4 , 2.10 , 2.20 , 4.4 ( and perhaps three more times see 4.5 )
Now this is the Mahaparinibbana Sutta one of the most important, which every monk would know. The problem is that in the rest of the five Nikaya's whenever the asava's are mentioned and named , or a number given, there are only three. Do you see a problem ? Of course there is more than one way to resolve this apparent contradiction. My explanation is that there is no problem, the noble eightfold path eliminates three asava's , the higher path eliminates the fourth. But you may wish to solve this problem another way. I am saying that there are things " hidden " in the teachings which only reveal themselves after many years of study. The teachings are deep and profound. They are not straightforward or simple.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17188
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by DNS »

vinasp wrote: I am saying that there are things " hidden " in the teachings which only reveal themselves after many years of study. The teachings are deep and profound. They are not straightforward or simple.
There are no secret, esoteric, or hidden teachings in Buddhism, certainly not in Theravada:

"Three things shine openly, not in secret. What three? The orb of the moon, the orb of the sun and the Dhamma and discipline taught by the Tathàgata"
(Anguttara Nikaya I. 283).

He reiterated this same point just before his final passing when he said; "I have proclaimed the Dhamma without any idea of a hidden and open teaching. I do not have the closed fist of the teacher who holds anything back" (Digha Nikaya II. 100).
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Questions about stream-winners

Post by vinasp »

Greetings TheDhamma,

You are right in one sense. I think we need to distinguish between secret in the sense of a separate teaching which is only given to selected people, which is what the Buddha was refering to when he speaks of the " closed fist of the teacher ..". And secret in the sense that not everyone will be able to understand it , did the Buddha not say that Dependent Origination was a deep and profound teaching ? Does everyone understand it ? It is all there in the five Nikaya's for anyone to see , but are they capable of seeing ? Sometimes someone who has seen can point out things to others and thus help them to see also. I hope this helps to avoid any mis-understanding on this point.

Best wishes, Vincent.
Post Reply