Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SamKR
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Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby SamKR » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:42 pm

What are the major differences between pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada Buddhism?

If you need to choose any one of them which would you choose and why?

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:49 pm

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SamKR
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby SamKR » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:03 am


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David N. Snyder
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:29 am

Okay, that is what I thought you meant by pre-sectarian Buddhism. Then yes, the type of Buddhism before all of the schisms would definitely be the best form of Buddhism without anything added or removed. That would be the type of Buddhism that was recited at the First Council.

As Theravadins, we would of course like to think that the Theravada matches that or is at least the closest we have to that of all the forms of Buddhism around. Certainly, it was the Theravada of the early schools that stayed firm to the anatta teachings of the Buddha.

Certainly, the first four Nikayas, the Patimokkha, and at least half of the Khuddaka Nikaya were recited at the First Council. Beyond that, see some of the discussion in the Abhidhamma thread in the Dhammic-free for all sub-forum.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:31 am

Greetings Sam,

This is the related topic TheDhamma is talking about...

The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2169

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:58 am


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Dmytro
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby Dmytro » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:04 am



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mikenz66
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:59 am


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Ben
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:09 am

Good post, Mike!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Individual
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby Individual » Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:20 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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mikenz66
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:55 pm


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gavesako
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby gavesako » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:57 pm

Acariyavada as defined in the Pali commentaries:

It has already been discussed how the different views of various authorities, like the atthakatha (commentary), the poranas (ancient teachers) and the bhanakas (reciters) have been quoted. There is a passage in the Sumangalavilasini [154] where the relative values of the authorities -- sutta, suttanuloma (in line with Sutta), acariyavada (teaching of the mentors) and attano-mati (own opinion), are discussed. Acariyavada is identified with atthakatha. Of these, sutta is the most authoritative and should not be rejected, for it would be like rejecting the Buddha himself. The other three are to be accepted only if they agree with ’sutta.’ In the Atthasalini, the reader is warned about the reliability of a statement which is not supported by the text or commentary.

http://www.bps.lk/new_wheels_library/wh113-p.html

And:

In his "Tamnan phra phutthachedi" (1926; partially
translated in 1973 as "Monuments of the Buddha in Siam"), Prince
Damrong Rajanubhab (1862-1943), wrote that at the time of Asoka there
were two nikaya, Theravada and Acariyavada, and that Asoka followed
Mogaliputra [Moggaliputta], head of the Theravada and upholder of the
Vibhajjavadi. This reflects Mahavamsa 5.1-3 and 5.271. (Geiger's
notes [1913], p. 26, "Acariyavada stands in contrast to theravada," and
p. 49, "Vibhajjavada is identical with theravada.") Prince Damrong
stated in a later chapter that in Dvaravati (Siam in the first
millennium), the doctrines were Theravada, which Asoka had proclaimed
to various nations.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

wtp
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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby wtp » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:50 pm

While it is true there is a lot of uncertainty about the original teachings of the Buddha, I do not think anyone would rationally believe that there was not some re-interpretation of those teachings after the Buddha's death. And most would agree that a number of important Buddhist concepts were not taught by the Buddha. This does not however make them wrong or unimportant. However a discussion about Pre-sectarian or Early Buddhism and the Theravada or other schools is quite valid and useful in my view.

We are all pursuing the Buddhist path and hence our similarities are vastly greater than our differences, nonetheless it is important to be aware of the different ideas and concepts we have and also the origin of those ideas and concepts. I do not think it is wise to dismiss this as a simple branding exercise or a way of achieving market share in the teaching of Buddhism. There is much more to this than that. Nor do I think it wise to dismiss such discussion with the assertion we can simply contemplate the teachings and know the truth - as described in the suttas even very advanced spiritual practitioners have gone wrong doing just this. In my view rational discussion and contemplation are both important.

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Re: Pre-sectarian Buddhism and Theravada

Postby Individual » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:54 am

The best things in life aren't things.



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