Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly without?

[VinceField]

I have been practicing with Bhante Vimalaramsi Brahmaviharas method for a few months now, the progress I had has been amazing, the very first day I decided to follow exactly his instructions I went through all the jhanas and reached cessation of perception and feeling, then I saw dependent origination.

Wow, that is quite the claim of attainment! Good for you. How long had you been meditating before switching to Vim's method?

I havent read the full 86 000 suttas that are meant to compose the entire canon but from what I heard the budha recommended the breathing mediation about 9 times, while recommending the brahmaviharas a few hundred times.

Recommended them for what? When it comes to developing a meditation practice that leads to liberation, the Buddha made very clear statements about what method to use.

From the Satipatthana Sutta:

The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.

From the Anapanasati Sutta:

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.

As far as I know, neither of these instructions mention the Brahma Viharas, but rather have mindfulness of breathing as their foundation. According to my understanding of the teachings, the Brahma Viharas do not lead the practitioner past the first four material jhanas.

[dhammarelax]

I have been practicing with Bhante Vimalaramsi Brahmaviharas method for a few months now, the progress I had has been amazing, the very first day I decided to follow exactly his instructions I went through all the jhanas and reached cessation of perception and feeling, then I saw dependent origination.

Wow, that is quite the claim of attainment! Good for you. How long had you been meditating before switching to Vim's method?

I havent read the full 86 000 suttas that are meant to compose the entire canon but from what I heard the budha recommended the breathing mediation about 9 times, while recommending the brahmaviharas a few hundred times.

Recommended them for what? When it comes to developing a meditation practice that leads to liberation, the Buddha made very clear statements about what method to use.

From the Satipatthana Sutta:

The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.

From the Anapanasati Sutta:

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.

As far as I know, neither of these instructions mention the Brahma Viharas, but rather have mindfulness of breathing as their foundation. According to my understanding of the teachings, the Brahma Viharas do not lead the practitioner past the first four material jhanas.

Hi VinceField

I had been meditating for about ten years before I used Bhante Vimalramsis method, I don't mean that mindfulness of breathing or the four foundations are not methods that will take you to final liberation if practiced correctly without a doubt they will, what I am saying is that the Buddha recommended the brahamaviharas much more often than he recommended the Anapanasati method.

As I mentioned I dont have the full list but on SN: 46.054 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) it is explained that the 1rst brahamavihara (loving kindness) leads you to the 4rth jhana in the case on one who has penetrated to no higher release (I tell you, monks, awareness-release through good will has the beautiful as its excellence — in the case of one who has penetrated to no higher release.) the second brahamavihara (compassion) leads you to the sphere of infinitude of space (I tell you, monks, awareness-release through compassion has the sphere of the infinitude of space as its excellence — in the case of one who has penetrated to no higher release.) the 3rd brahamavihara (empathetic joy) leads you to infinitude of consciousness (I tell you, monks, awareness-release through empathetic joy has the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness as its excellence — in the case of one who has penetrated to no higher release.) the 4rth brahavihara leads you to nothingness ( I tell you, monks, awareness-release through equanimity has the sphere of nothingness as its excellence — in the case of one who has penetrated to no higher release.") so from here is clear that the brahamaviharas go a long way. I can vouch for this on my own practice as well it works exactly like that.

Also on AN 8.63 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) we have another example of using (not only) the brahamaviras this time for full arahatship. On MN 52.8, 9, 10, 11, (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) we also have similar information about their reach.

Let me know if you need more material.

With Metta
dhammarelax

[VinceField]

what I am saying is that the Buddha recommended the brahamaviharas much more often than he recommended the Anapanasati method.

I understand. My question is, what did he recommend the BVs for? Perhaps he prescribed different practices for different purposes.

The Buddha clearly explains the path to liberation in the Satipatthana Sutta, and the BVs aren't mentioned. So if the BVs more effectively lead to liberation, why did the Buddha not teach this?

I do believe that many monks and scholars agree that according to the Suttas, the BVs take the person up to the fourth material jhana and no farther.

[dhammarelax]

Check the suttas I quoted, you will see there what are the brahmaviharas recomended for. Also you can see that the brahmaviharas lead you higher than the 4rth Jhana.

[badscooter]

Check the suttas I quoted, you will see there what are the brahmaviharas recomended for. Also you can see that the brahmaviharas lead you higher than the 4rth Jhana.

The BV's won't lead to full liberation.. The buddha stated one can be born in the Devas world from the practice of the BV's..

Let's not forget the buddha taught many different kinds of practice for different people. Be careful of someone that teaches a catch all technique that works for everyone!!! Not even the Buddha taught the same meditation techniques to everybody.

Kind regards

[VinceField]

Check the suttas I quoted, you will see there what are the brahmaviharas recomended for. Also you can see that the brahmaviharas lead you higher than the 4rth Jhana.

My point in asking that question was that, as BillyMac indicated, not every type of practice or strategy that the Buddha prescribed was for the same ailment or purpose. Hinting that Metta is a superior meditation object because it is referenced more times than breath meditation may be an invalid comparison if those hundreds of Metta references aren't aimed at the same goal as breath meditation, leading a meditator to liberation, which I don't believe they are.

I just read an informative essay by Thanissaro Bhikkhu on this topic. His stance is basically that it is possible for the BVs to take one to states of higher concentration beyond the fourth Jhana when combined with other factors, but the BVs will not take the person to awakening.

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... itudes.pdf

[Mkoll]

The BV's won't lead to full liberation.. The buddha stated one can be born in the Devas world from the practice of the BV's..

That's true. But it's also true that in conjunction with penetrating insight, they can lead to full liberation.

“Again, a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself, he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill will. He considers this and understands it thus: ‘This deliverance of mind through loving-kindness is conditioned and volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints…without ever returning from that world.

“This too is one thing proclaimed by the Blessed One… wherein if a bhikkhu abides diligent, ardent, and resolute…he attains the supreme security from bondage that he had not attained before.

“Again, a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with compassion…without ill will. He considers this and understands it thus: ‘This deliverance of mind through compassion is conditioned and volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints…without ever returning from that world.

“This too is one thing proclaimed by the Blessed One… wherein if a bhikkhu abides diligent, ardent, and resolute…he attains the supreme security from bondage that he had not attained before.

“Again, a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with altruistic joy…without ill will. He considers this and understands it thus: ‘This deliverance of mind through altruistic joy is conditioned and volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints…without ever returning from that world.

“This too is one thing proclaimed by the Blessed One… wherein if a bhikkhu abides diligent, ardent, and resolute…he attains the supreme security from bondage that he had not attained before.

“Again, a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with equanimity…without ill will. He considers this and understands it thus: ‘This deliverance of mind through equanimity is conditioned and volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints…without ever returning from that world.

“This too is one thing proclaimed by the Blessed One… wherein if a bhikkhu abides diligent, ardent, and resolute…he attains the supreme security from bondage that he had not attained before.

Also, see AN 4.178.

[mikenz66]

Suttas such as this show that the BVs are one way of achieving samadhi, along with breath, and many others. Reading suttas like that alongside the Anapanasati sutta suggests that the particular object that one starts with (metta, breath, whatever) is not really the point, the insight into impermanence and so on is the point.


Mike

[badscooter]

Suttas such as this show that the BVs are one way of achieving samadhi, along with breath, and many others. Reading suttas like that alongside the Anapanasati sutta suggests that the particular object that one starts with (metta, breath, whatever) is not really the point, the insight into impermanence and so on is the point.


Mike

I think this is what i was getting at. The buddha taught many meditations. I've read the buddha held the view of mindfulness of breathing (mindfulness of the body) to be the safest and of great benefit. However, not all of the monks practiced it. I think steadying the mind and penetrating into reality is the common theme. but I can't find any "special technique" in the suttas.

[mikenz66]

Suttas such as this show that the BVs are one way of achieving samadhi, along with breath, and many others. Reading suttas like that alongside the Anapanasati sutta suggests that the particular object that one starts with (metta, breath, whatever) is not really the point, the insight into impermanence and so on is the point.


Mike

I think this is what i was getting at. The buddha taught many meditations.
I've read the buddha held the view of mindfulness of breathing (mindfulness of the body) to be the safest and of great benefit. However, not all of the monks practiced it. I think steadying the mind and penetrating into reality is the common theme. but I can't find any "special technique" in the suttas.

Breathing meditation seems to be popular among modern teachers, but I'm not sure where in the suttas or commentaries it's said to be "safest", etc. Many (most?) suttas that discuss insight do not mention a particular method to achieve jhana, etc.


Mike

[Nicolas]

Breathing meditation is part of the satipatthana sutta, it's part of sammasati! (cf. MN 10 / DN 22)

This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four?

There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself?

[1] There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns, 'I am making a long turn,' or when making a short turn discerns, 'I am making a short turn'; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long' ... He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.
[etc.]

[tiltbillings]

Breathing meditation seems to be popular among modern teachers, but I'm not sure where in the suttas or commentaries it's said to be "safest", etc. Many (most?) suttas that discuss insight do not mention a particular method to achieve jhana, etc.

I think what is being referred to is this text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[mikenz66]

Thanks Nicolas, Tilt.

Of course, there are many other contemplations in the satipatthana sutta, including contemplation on decaying bodies... I would also be very careful about taking one of the many suttas that say "X is of great benefit" and reading it as "Only X is of great benefit". The sutta quoted above: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 80#p319462 had contemplation based on the Brahamaviharas leading to liberation...


Mike

[tiltbillings]

Thanks Nicolas, Tilt.

Of course, there are many other contemplations in the satipatthana sutta, including contemplation on decaying bodies... I would also be very careful about taking one of the many suttas that say "X is of great benefit" and reading it as "Only X is of great benefit". The sutta quoted above: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 80#p319462 had contemplation based on the Brahamaviharas leading to liberation...


Mike

Just to clarify, I was responding to the "safest" business.

[mikenz66]

Hi Tilt,

Yes, certainly, thanks for the link. I can see how that is probably the source of such statements about "safeness".


Mike