What are the qualities of Nibbana?

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What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby sundara » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:47 am

So as I said in the title, what qualities does nibbana possess?
And is niabbana a state that you don't experience the world but a trascendental state?
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:41 am

Greetings Sundara,

This might be a good place to start...

Nibbana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... bbana.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby sundara » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:24 am

What does fabrications mean in this verse:
Hunger: the foremost illness. Fabrications: the foremost pain. For one knowing this truth as it actually is, Unbinding is the foremost ease.
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:43 am

Greetings Sundara,

sankhára: This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished.

(I) To its most frequent usages (s. foll. 1-4) the general term 'formation' may be applied, with the qualifications required by the context. This term may refer either to the act of 'forming or to the passive state of 'having been formed' or to both.

1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, (paticcasamuppáda, q.v.), sankhára has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma (q.v.), i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S. XII, 2, 27. For s. in this sense, the word 'karma-formation' has been coined by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to (a) meritorious karma-formations (puññ'ábhisankhára), (b) demeritorious k. (apuññ'abhisankhára), (c) imperturbable k. (áneñj'ábhisankhára), e.g. in S. XII, 51; D. 33. This threefold division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the meritorious karma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine-material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere, and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere.

2. The aforementioned three terms, káya-, vací- and citta-s. are sometimes used in quite a different sense, namely as (1) bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M. 10), (2) verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking, (3) mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M. 44). See nirodhasamápatti.

3. It also denotes the 4th group of existence (sankhárakkhandha), and includes all 'mental formations' whether they belong to 'karmically forming' consciousness or not. See khandha, Tab. II. and S. XXII, 56, 79.

4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata, q.v.) and conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhára aniccá ... dukkhá). In that context, however, s. is subordinate to the still wider and all-embracing term dhamma (thing); for dhamma includes also the Unformed or Unconditioned Element (asankhata-dhátu), i.e. Nibbána (e.g. in sabbe dhammá anattá, "all things are without a self").

(II) Sankhára also means sometimes 'volitional effort', e.g. in the formula of the roads to power (iddhi-páda, q.v.); in sasankhára- and asankhára-parinibbáyí (s. anágámí, q.v.); and in the Abhidhamma terms asankhárika- (q.v.) and sasankhárika-citta, i.e. without effort = spontaneously, and with effort = prompted.

In Western literature, in English as well as in German, sankhára is sometimes mistranslated by 'subconscious tendencies' or similarly (e.g Prof Beckh: "unterbewußte Bildekräfte," i.e. subconscious formative forces). This misinterpretation derives perhaps from a similar usage in non-Buddhist Sanskrit literature, and is entirely inapplicable to the connotations of the term in Páli Buddhism, as listed above under I, 1-4. For instance, within the dependent origination, s. is neither subconscious nor a mere tendency, but is a fully conscious and active karmic volition. In the context of the 5 groups of existence (s. above I, 3), a very few of the factors from the group of mental formations (sankhárakkhandha) are also present as concomitants of subconsciousness (s. Tab. I-III), but are of course not restricted to it, nor are they mere tendencies.


Source: http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Buddh ... dic3_s.htm

What does fabrications mean in this verse


I'm inclined to go with def #1 on this one, but it would be good to see the verse in its entirety.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby appicchato » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:59 am

Fabrications, to me (in a nutshell) are discursive thoughts...
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby jhana.achariya » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:22 am

Fabricating. Mental fabricating. Discursive thinking.

:meditate:
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:29 am

sundara wrote:So as I said in the title, what qualities does nibbana possess?
And is niabbana a state that you don't experience the world but a trascendental state?


There are a number of discussion topics related to Nibbana, including:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=471

You can find more by using the search box, above right.
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby kannada » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:41 am

sundara wrote:So as I said in the title, what qualities does nibbana possess?
And is niabbana a state that you don't experience the world but a trascendental state?

Hi Sundara,

Nibbana / Nirvana is a postulate - an assertion. It points to the quality-less, the attribute-less, the unconditioned. nirvanaH (nirvaNa) is defined as "the tree-less land" (void of mark or definition). The word is probably related to "savannah" - (A flat grassland in tropical or subtropical regions).

Nibbana is not a state, there is no 'you', there cannot be a within or without, one cannot be 'in' nirvana. In brief, nirvana is "the absense of definition"...

Regards
Last edited by kannada on Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby appicchato » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:50 am

kannada wrote: Nirvana...The word is probably related to "savannah"


:popcorn:
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby kannada » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:33 pm

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/downloa ... onary.html

nirvaNa* = m. or n. a country without forests L.; mfn. = {-vana}; ({-Ne}) ind. in the open country Pân. vi, 2, 178; viii, 4, 5 Kâs'.

nirvana* = mfn. having no wood, being out of a wñwood or in the open country MBh. v, 863 (cf. {-vaNa}).

nirvaaNa* = mfn. blown or put out, extinguished (as a lamp or fire), set (as the sun), calmed, quieted, tamed (cf. {a-nirv-}), dead, deceased (lit. having the fire of life extinguished), lost, disappeared MBh. Kâv. &c.; immersed, plunged L.; immovable L.; {-bhUyiSTha} mfn. nearly extinguished), or vanished Kum. ii, 53; n. blowing out, extinction, cessation, setting, vanishing, disappearance ({-NaM-kR}, to make away with anything i.e. not to keep one's promise); extinction of the flame of life, dissolution, death or final emancipation from matter and re-union with the Supreme Spirit MBh. &c. &c.; (with Buddhists and Jainas) absolute extinction or annihilation (= {zUnya} L.) of individual existence or of all desires and passions MWB. 137139 &c.; perfect calm or repose or happiness, highest bliss or beatitude MBh. Kâv. &c.; N. of an Upanishad; instructing in sciences L.; bathing of an elephant L.; the post to which an elephant is tied Gal.; offering oblations (for 1. {nir-vApaNa} ?) L.; {-kara} m. `" causing extinction of all sense of individuality "', a partic. Samâdhi Kârand.; {-kANDa} m. or n. N. of wk.; {-tantra} see {bRhan-nirvANat-} and {mahA-n-}; {-da} mfn. bestowing final beatitude MBh.; {-dazaka} n. N. of wk.; {-dIkSita} m. N. of a grammarian Cat.; {-dhAtu} m. the region of Nirvâna Vajracch. Kârand.; {-purANa} n. offering oblations to the dead Râjat.; {-prakaraNa} n. N. of wk.; {-priyA} f. N. of a Gandharvî Kârand.; {-maNDapa} m. N. of a temple, Skandap.; {-mantra} n. N. of a mystical formula Cat.; {-maya} mf({I})n. full of bliss VP.; {-mastaka} m. liberation, deliverance W.; {-yoga-paTala-stotra} and {-yogo7ttara} n. N. of wks.; {-ruci} m. pl. `" delighting in final beatitude "'N. of a class of deities under the 11th Manu BhP. (cf. {nirmANa-rati}); {-lakSaNa} mfn. having complete bliss as its characteristic mark MW.; {-SaTka} n. N. of a Stotra; {-saMcodana} m. a partic. Samâdhi, Kârand.; {-sUtra} n. N. of partic. Buddh. Sûtras; {-No7paniSad} f. N. of an Upanishad.
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:44 pm

Hi All

The way in which we experience qualities is governed by our interpretation of what is, what is not, what was, what will be, and where it came from. Since Nibbanna cannot be interpreted in these ways there is no point in thinking of it as an experience or in terms of having qualities unless it is provisionally helpful in terms of inspiration and the like. When the Buddha gave descriptions like "a cool cave" or "an island in the flood" I think they are meant to help us in a provisional manner. Qualities are experienced and as unenlightened beings we reference our experience with descriptions that attempt to classify an ever changing flood. Nirvanna does not have qualities in this way. That is why it is like an island in the flood.


Take care all

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"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby sundara » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:08 pm

In the book "Eight Mindful Steps to Happiness" by Gunaratana, he says that Nibbana is a state you can't experience it. It's quality is total peace and hence total happiness.
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:49 pm

fabrications in the context of talking of nibbbana refer to all phenomena that arises - every thing that we perceive from the six sense bases
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Re: What are the qualities of Nibbana?

Postby DontKnow » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:30 am

sundara wrote:So as I said in the title, what qualities does nibbana possess?
And is niabbana a state that you don't experience the world but a trascendental state?

Hello sundara

There was a great theravadin monk and I believe he was an arahant, sage. He has been asked several times about nibbana. I will quote his words (you can find whole of his teachings here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html

4. Above & beyond words

A well-read layman was conversing with Luang Pu, saying, "I firmly believe that in our present day and age there are not just a few monks who have practiced to the point of reaching the paths, fruitions, and nibbana. So why don't they make their knowledge public, so that those who are interested in the practice will know of the levels of Dhamma they have attained, as a way of giving them encouragement and hope so that they'll accelerate their efforts to the utmost of their ability?"

Luang Pu answered,

"Those who have awakened don't talk of what they've awakened to, because it lies above and beyond all words."



73. Should you ask?

Many people interested in the practice, whether lay or ordained, are not only intent on their practice but also like to search out teachers who are skilled in giving advice.

Once a group of meditating monks from the central region of Thailand came to spend many days listening to Luang Pu's Dhamma and to his advice on meditation. One of the monks told Luang Pu of his feelings: "I've searched out many teachers, and although they all teach well, they generally teach just about the Vinaya, or the practicing of wandering and following the ascetic practices, or else the bliss and stillness that come from practicing concentration. But as for you, you teach the straight route to the top: not-self, emptiness, nibbana. Forgive me for being so forward as to ask, but in teaching about nibbana, have you attained it yet?"

Luang Pu answered,

"There's nothing that will attain, and nothing that won't attain."

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