A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi vinasp
On point 1. Summarise.
On point 2. When is it used for those who are not enlightened? it ddoesn't refer to those who aren't enlightened, and doesn't refer to both the path leading upto and the fruit of that path it means the fruit of the path.
On point 3. summarise the difference. btw a ariya savaka is any of the four pairs or eight individuals not only a stream winner, they are noble because they have taken up & are on the path not because they have attained a particular level, there are also Dhamma followers, and Faith followers who are disciples and will atain at least the first stage of enlightenment in this life who can still be called Worldlings.
it would be interesting to see how you explain this outside of the four pairs...
On point 4&5. your interpretation of these points aren't new, no more need to be said, there are threads on the aggregates & DO which I am sure could accompdate and be better tailored to discuss these views.
On point 6. References? would you say a tourguide to a City and the City are the same thing?
We will need to choose one topic for more detailed discussion soon.
if this is how you think it would be best to procede I am fine with that, but lets be catagorical, there are threads dedicated to 4&5 already where these interpretations can be examined by those interested in discussing these topics, but these are hardly controversial in any significant way and more likely to find agreement.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by BlackBird »

vinasp wrote:I do not meditate
vinasp wrote:I struggle to see the truth.
That might have something to do with it ;)

Metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1602
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by appicchato »

I struggle to see the truth.
Don't we all?...
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi Jechbi,

There is nothing physical in the aggregates. What I mean is that the aggregates should not be understood as any real physical or material thing. That rupa is material things. But rupa as an aggregate is only a category of mental object.
These mental objects are mis-understandings of physical or material things. The other four aggregates are mental so would not be physical. But these also are only categories of mental object , in other words, mis-understandings of mental things.

Best wishes, Vincent.
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi tiltbillings,

On the use of the term arahant for those on the higher path. I had in mind those references to " the arahants path", which are found in the nikayas. The best known example is MN 117 section 34. They are, of course, talking about the asekha.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by tiltbillings »

vinasp wrote:Hi tiltbillings,

On the use of the term arahant for those on the higher path. I had in mind those references to " the arahants path", which are found in the nikayas. The best known example is MN 117 section 34. They are, of course, talking about the asekha.

Best wishes, Vincent.

Given the sort of claims you are making, it would be appropriate to quote the actual texts you feel supports your position. Even without looking at the text, you are stating that it does not, apparently, actually support the claim: "The term arahant is also used for those on the higher path. "
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi vinasp,
vinasp wrote:On the use of the term arahant for those on the higher path. I had in mind those references to " the arahants path", which are found in the nikayas. The best known example is MN 117 section 34. They are, of course, talking about the asekha.
I guess you mean this section of MN117, where the Arahant has right knowledge and right release?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.
It might be worth pointing out that the supramundane "path" described in this Sutta is in the sense of the Abhidhamma, as "attainment of the path". Have you listened to Bhikkhu Bohdi's talks on this Sutta?
http://www.bodhimonastery.net/bm/about- ... ?showall=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and/or the talk here: http://www.bswa.org/audio/podcast/SuttaStudy.rss.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Great Forty
Monday, 26 June 2006 4:00 p.m.
Ajahn Brahmali discusses the Mahacattarisaka Sutta, Majhimma Nikaya 117
Mike
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

To expand on point 1. I am trying to make a list of all the things in the teachings which are understood in one way by a puthujjana , and in another way by an ariya savaka.

1. Dependent Origination.
2. The five aggregates.
3. The five aggregates of clinging.
4. The Noble Eightfold Path.
5. The Buddha's liberation.
6. The Four Noble Truths.
7. The four jhana's ?
8. The non-returner ?
9. Nibbana and parinibbana.
10. Tathagata ?

A question mark means I am not certain about it. As you read through the list, ask yourself : do I see both ways in which these are understood ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
Last edited by vinasp on Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by tiltbillings »

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

To expand on point 1. I am trying to make a list of all the things in the teachings which are understood in one way by a puthujjana , and in another way by an ariya savaka.

1. Dependent Origination.
2. The five aggregates.
3. The five aggregates of clinging.
4. The Noble Eightfold Path.
5. The Buddha's liberation.
6. The Four Noble Truths.
7. The four jhana's ?
8. The non-returner ?
9. Nibbana and parinibbana.
10. Tathagata ?

A question mark means I am not certain about it.

Best wishes, Vincent.
This is kind of stating the obvious. Your point is?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi tiltbillings,

I am new to Buddhist forums, I am only talking here about an interpretation which I think is interesting. I only have an outline of it at present. It is work in progress. I have not worked out all the details yet.
I may make statements which are difficult to defend by quoting a text. Are you insisting on rigorous academic standards ? I like the higher path interpretation because it solves many problems in the teachings. But they may never actually say explicitly that there is such a higher path.
On the passage in MN 117 : " Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten". The sekha is defined by his having the eight path factors, not yet fully developed. In other words anyone on the noble eightfold path. The asekha has ten factors. Why should I not interpret these ten factors as a tenfold path ? When do you think the five aggregates cease ? At death or before death ? They do not cease through the noble eightfold path.

Best wishes, Vincent.
Last edited by vinasp on Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by BlackBird »

The essential problem I have with your interpretation Vincent, is that it seems to rely on The Buddha saying one thing to one group of people, and another thing to another. Withholding information, esotericism, and in effect not being truthful, this is not the Dhamma, this is not the Buddha, this is not the teaching. To quote you from a previous thread:
vinasp wrote: I have just found even stronger evidence that the Buddha tells porkies.
The simple fact is the three realms of existence are mentioned extensively throughout the Pali Canon. For the reality of the three realms to be false the follow passage would naturally have to be untrue:
[1] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a doctrine founded upon truth. Not upon deceit in the case that is for the benefit of others, as highlighted in the above quote.

The true doctrine of the Buddha is not esoteric. The Blessed One has spoken thus:
"What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back.
- DN 16 verse 32, Maha-paranibbana Sutta

If there's one thing you take out of this post, please let it be that this is not a doctrine to be intellectually analysed and radical conclusions drawn from. It is a doctrine to be practised. Only by practising the Noble Eightfold Path (of which meditation is a large proportion) can one come to realise the path with one's own conviction, to know it for sure.

All schisms that have affected the Triple Gem, have as a cause: not practicing the Noble Eightfold Path. They have, as a result: radical interpretations of the Dhamma. Since the time of the first council, we have had the correct interpretation of the Buddha's teachings available to us, those beings who compiled the teachings which were to form the Pali Canon, were the Ariya-Sangha, they were meditators, who had seen the Dhamma for themselves, and knew with absolute conviction that this was the way things were. The way these Ariyan Bhikkhus saw things, has been passed down from generation to generation up unto the present day, the orthodox view represents what the Buddha, and the Ariya-Sangha saw through conviction. It is therefore the right view.
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."
- AN 2.23 Abhasita Sutta: What Was Not Said - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Now, for one of wrong view, Lohicca, I tell you, there is one of two destinations: either hell or the animal womb.
- DN 12 Lohicca Sutta - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vincent, you say you do not meditate and struggle to see the truth, but it is exactly by meditation that one comes to see the truth, there is no other way. Follow the Noble Eightfold Path, practice virtue, restraint of the senses, practice calming meditation, establish yourself in mindfulness, put the effort in, wisdom shall arise, and you shall realise and know, what is and is not the path.

Metta to you
Jack.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi mikenz66,

That is the correct passage.Thank You for posting it. When I read it through it made me wonder if I have got it right. Perhaps it is not a tenfold path, but a two limb path. The extra two factors are the higher path. Just thinking aloud.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

vinasp wrote: On the passage in MN 117 : " Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten. The sekha is defined by his having the eight path factors, not yet fully developed. In other words anyone on the noble eightfold path.
My understanding is that a sekha is at least a stream-enterer:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#sekha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sekha: a 'noble learner', a disciple in higher training, i.e. one who pursues the 3 kinds of training sikkhā, is one of those 7 kinds of Noble Disciples who have reached one of the 4 supra-mundane paths or the 3 lower fruitions see: ariya-puggala while the one possessed of the 4th fruition, or Arahatta-phala, is called 'one beyond training' asekha lit. 'no more learner'. The worldling puthujjana is called 'neither a noble learner, nor perfected in learning' n'eva-sekha-nāsekha Cf. Pug. 23-25.
Mike
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi Blackbird,

Thank you for your most interesting post. Please do not assume that I say these things without deep thought. I worry every day whether I should be saying these things. Many will see it as damaging to the Buddha, Sangha, teachings etc. But one must also consider possible benefits.
Did the Buddha say one thing to one group of people, and another thing to another ? We do not actually know. Could lay people hear the entire teachings, or only Digha Nikaya ? It is more a question of how people understand what the Buddha is saying.

Best wishes, Vincent.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi Blackbird,

Thank you for your most interesting post. Please do not assume that I say these things without deep thought. I worry every day whether I should be saying these things. Many will see it as damaging to the Buddha, Sangha, teachings etc. But one must also consider possible benefits.
Did the Buddha say one thing to one group of people, and another thing to another ? We do not actually know. Could lay people hear the entire teachings, or only Digha Nikaya ? It is more a question of how people understand what the Buddha is saying.

Best wishes, Vincent.
Hi Vincent,
The Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha are strong enough on their own not to be damaged, and any Damage would not be to the true Buddha Dhamma and Sangha, but I do not see anything which would suggest the Buddha was a teacher with a closed fist, he certainly taught what was appropriate in a situation asking people to put his words to the test by living and practicing in accordance with them (not necesarily donning the robes which is something the commentaries and certain passages support, see my exploration in my signature or a thread about Dhamma & Vinaya monks http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... nks#p22244" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). but I would suggest that the only way to understand what the Buddha is saying is by doing the practice.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Post Reply