A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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zavk
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by zavk »

Hi Vincent (and others)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I've been trying to follow this thread but I must say that I can only partially follow the discussion as I do not have a comprehensive understanding of the Nikayas as some of you do. Nevertheless, I became curious about one thing as I was reading the different posts and this curiosity sort of crystallized in this offhand remark you made:
vinasp wrote:But one must also consider possible benefits.
So if I may interrupt the discussion and ask you a personal (but I hope not intrusive) question. I'll return to being a curious spectator after this.

Given how the aim of the Buddhadhamma is the cessation of dukkha, and given how the Pali Canon is the earliest extant collection of teachings leading to the cessation of dukkha, how then has your extended study and new understanding of the Nikaya benefited you on the path leading to the cessation of dukkha?

In other words, how has your study/new understanding of the Nikaya helped you live a life of peace and contentment?


:anjali:
With metta,
zavk
alan
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by alan »

Wow! I just joined 10 minutes ago, hoping to find a few interesting, intelligent people who like to discuss Dhamma. And the first thing I come across is this lunacy!
How about I say what we must all be thinking--whoever posted this nonsense should just be ignored. This thread is a waste of time.
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Cittasanto
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Alan and welcome,
sometimes unerstanding where a peron is comming from with their views can shed light onto our own!
just because someone thinks something at face value we may or may not disagree with doesn't mean we ignore them, it means we reflect on this, and use that as a tool to reflect on ourselves.

it is nice to meet you but it is customary to post first in the introduction section of the forum
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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retrofuturist
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alan,

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

Understandably, the Dhammic Free-For-All section may not be to everyone's fancy.

Appropriate conduct within the Dhammic free-for-all forum
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=175

As those guidelines state...
The purpose of this sub-forum is to openly permit important and challenging discussion on the Dhamma. By establishing a particular forum as a Free-For-All, albeit one where members must still be nice to each other, we aim to keep other areas of the site free from vociferous debate. We have attempted to establish an appropriate time and place for everything, with well established boundaries that will be enforced.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi mikenz66,

Savatthi....
Then a certain monk came to visit the Exalted One...
Seated at one side that monk said this to the Exalted One...
" A learner, a learner !" lord, is the saying. Pray, lord, how
how far is one a learner ?
" Herein, monk, a monk is imperfectly possessed of right view, and
the rest. He is imperfectly possessed of right concentration.
Thus far, monk, he is a learner.

In other words if one is still developing the path factors then one is a learner.
I thought I would quote an old PTS version for a change. Kindred Sayings Vol.5 page 13.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

vinasp wrote: In other words if one is still developing the path factors then one is a learner.
Yes, that's what the definition I quoted above said. A Sekha is not yet an Arahant, so has not perfected the path. As it says, only an Arahant is "beyond training."

Mike
vinasp
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi mike,

What do you think is the meaning of right effort for an arahant ?
And if the path factors never end, are you not saying that the path never ends ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

I didn't say the path never ends, I said it didn't end until Arahantship.

Mike
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Cittasanto
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

Vinasp,
what is your agenda?

sorry but I get a sense you are either concealing something, or out for something else!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Jechbi
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Jechbi »

vinasp wrote: There is nothing physical in the aggregates. What I mean is that the aggregates should not be understood as any real physical or material thing. That rupa is material things. But rupa as an aggregate is only a category of mental object.
These mental objects are mis-understandings of physical or material things. The other four aggregates are mental so would not be physical. But these also are only categories of mental object , in other words, mis-understandings of mental things.
Thanks, Vincent. Sorry to be dense, but I still don't understand what you mean by "physical." You seem to say that a "physical" thing, if it existed, would be a "material" thing rather than a "mental" thing. But what would distinguish it as "physical" or "material," and not "mental," if such a thing existed? What characteristic or quality would, in theory, endow the "physical" with separateness from the "mental"? I'm just trying to understand how you personally are defining the word "physical" in your interpretation. thx.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Sanghamitta »

Jechbi wrote:
vinasp wrote: There is nothing physical in the aggregates. What I mean is that the aggregates should not be understood as any real physical or material thing. That rupa is material things. But rupa as an aggregate is only a category of mental object.
These mental objects are mis-understandings of physical or material things. The other four aggregates are mental so would not be physical. But these also are only categories of mental object , in other words, mis-understandings of mental things.
Thanks, Vincent. Sorry to be dense, but I still don't understand what you mean by "physical." You seem to say that a "physical" thing, if it existed, would be a "material" thing rather than a "mental" thing. But what would distinguish it as "physical" or "material," and not "mental," if such a thing existed? What characteristic or quality would, in theory, endow the "physical" with separateness from the "mental"? I'm just trying to understand how you personally are defining the word "physical" in your interpretation. thx.
It appears to me vinasp, that the other flaws in your thesis have their origin in your conflation of the Buddhadhamma with Idealism. You are not the first to do this. I doubt if you will be the last.
:anjali:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Hoja
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Hoja »

BlackBird wrote: (...)
If there's one thing you take out of this post, please let it be that this is not a doctrine to be intellectually analysed and radical conclusions drawn from. It is a doctrine to be practised. Only by practising the Noble Eightfold Path (of which meditation is a large proportion) can one come to realise the path with one's own conviction, to know it for sure. (...)
Vincent, you say you do not meditate and struggle to see the truth, but it is exactly by meditation that one comes to see the truth, there is no other way. Follow the Noble Eightfold Path, practice virtue, restraint of the senses, practice calming meditation, establish yourself in mindfulness, put the effort in, wisdom shall arise, and you shall realise and know, what is and is not the path.
A great answer!
Metta.
vinasp
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi Jechbi,

You are probably finding what I said to be confusing because you understand the form aggregate as body. This is the understanding that we all start with. There is another way to understand the aggregates. The five nikayas give other definitions.

Hi Sanghamitta,

I am not an idealist. There is no idealist philosophy in the five nikaya's. I am not denying that there are physical things. I am not denying the reality of the physical world. I am sorry if people have mis-understood what I was attempting to express.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Sanghamitta »

Youre two answers above appear to contradict each other Vinasp.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
vinasp
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi Sanghamitta,

I see no contradiction. Please explain what you see as one.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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