2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

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soapy3
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by soapy3 »

VinceField wrote: Since you are bringing this idea to the table (that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings have a negative tone), why don't you provide us with some specific quotes in which you find to be negative.
If I wrote "all of it" or "most of it" you would think I was being flippant where I was not. I really think you could begin with any of his writings. I'm not the only one who has that view of his TB's work. TB, rightfully or wrongfully has a reputation as being a downer.

Tone, choice of words, and the content he frequently focuses on. I've read his stuff since the 90s and I never came away with a "I'm charged up, let me leave the house and embrace life" feeling from anything he ever wrote. At best neutral. Reading his stuff, I get the unconscious sentence "Life is miserable, learn to hate your feeling, learn to hate your desires, cultivate a sense of urgency about standing on guard against yourself, and you may be lucky enough to die and stay dead by achieving nibanna.".

This past summer my father became ill out of nowhere and I was told he had a week to live. A few other big changes happened in the same span of time. I found myself envying religious Christians because they at least had a happy story to tell themselves for comfort. All I had from reading Thanisarro Bhikkhu and Bhikkhu Bodhi was the caricature/impression I've had since reading their stuff since the 90s.

I have friends where I study who are into both men's translations. They have to be getting something out of it, so I think I will use the idea I came up with earlier. I will simply ask them to point out what they have read from those men that gives them comfort and to explain why. That is the best second chance I can give those authors.
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VinceField
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by VinceField »

soapy3 wrote:
VinceField wrote: Since you are bringing this idea to the table (that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings have a negative tone), why don't you provide us with some specific quotes in which you find to be negative.
If I wrote "all of it" or "most of it" you would think I was being flippant where I was not. I really think you could begin with any of his writings. I'm not the only one who has that view of his TB's work. TB, rightfully or wrongfully has a reputation as being a downer.

Tone, choice of words, and the content he frequently focuses on. I've read his stuff since the 90s and I never came away with a "I'm charged up, let me leave the house and embrace life" feeling from anything he ever wrote. At best neutral. Reading his stuff, I get the unconscious sentence "Life is miserable, learn to hate your feeling, learn to hate your desires, cultivate a sense of urgency about standing on guard against yourself, and you may be lucky enough to die and stay dead by achieving nibanna.".

This past summer my father became ill out of nowhere and I was told he had a week to live. A few other big changes happened in the same span of time. I found myself envying religious Christians because they at least had a happy story to tell themselves for comfort. All I had from reading Thanisarro Bhikkhu and Bhikkhu Bodhi was the caricature/impression I've had since reading their stuff since the 90s.

I have friends where I study who are into both men's translations. They have to be getting something out of it, so I think I will use the idea I came up with earlier. I will simply ask them to point out what they have read from those men that gives them comfort and to explain why. That is the best second chance I can give those authors.
Well, since you aren't providing anything solid to work with, only vague generalities, I don't believe there is much that can be done to be of service to you. I can provide direct quotes from every dhamma talk I listen to of Thanissaro's and explain exactly why each teaching is a positive influence on my practice, but I have a feeling it will do little to convince you and I have little desire to convince you to begin with. There are other teachers out there. I'm sure you can fare well with the others.

Just the fact that Culaavuso provided some quotes in which Thanissaro specifically speaks of the positiveness of Buddhism, and you essentially implied that those were the only positive things he has ever said and everything else is negative, is a pretty blatant indicator of an unbalanced perspective.

There is a facebook group "The Skillful Teachings of Thanissaro Bhikkhu" in which several inspiring quotes are posted daily. If you took your argument over to that group and opened it for discussion, I'm sure you would get some pretty enlightening perspectives on just how inspiring Thanissaro's teachings can be.

Also, the fact that for decades you have been following a teacher who you claim to be a negative influence on your practice is rather puzzling. Ironically this goes directly against Thanissaro's teachings of abandoning that which arises unwholesomeness in oneself. This leads me to believe that there are most likely some aspects of the teachings that you are not comprehending, or misinterpreting at best.

Finding comfort amidst the death of loved ones comes from understanding the Dhamma. Teachers can only point us to the Dhamma, but it is not the teacher that provides the comfort, it is in the dhamma expressed by the teacher in which the comfort is found. I believe that Thanissaro provides us with this dhamma just as well as any other teacher.
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Mkoll
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by Mkoll »

soapy3 wrote:
VinceField wrote: Since you are bringing this idea to the table (that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings have a negative tone), why don't you provide us with some specific quotes in which you find to be negative.
If I wrote "all of it" or "most of it" you would think I was being flippant where I was not. I really think you could begin with any of his writings. I'm not the only one who has that view of his TB's work. TB, rightfully or wrongfully has a reputation as being a downer.

Tone, choice of words, and the content he frequently focuses on. I've read his stuff since the 90s and I never came away with a "I'm charged up, let me leave the house and embrace life" feeling from anything he ever wrote. At best neutral. Reading his stuff, I get the unconscious sentence "Life is miserable, learn to hate your feeling, learn to hate your desires, cultivate a sense of urgency about standing on guard against yourself, and you may be lucky enough to die and stay dead by achieving nibanna.".

This past summer my father became ill out of nowhere and I was told he had a week to live. A few other big changes happened in the same span of time. I found myself envying religious Christians because they at least had a happy story to tell themselves for comfort. All I had from reading Thanisarro Bhikkhu and Bhikkhu Bodhi was the caricature/impression I've had since reading their stuff since the 90s.

I have friends where I study who are into both men's translations. They have to be getting something out of it, so I think I will use the idea I came up with earlier. I will simply ask them to point out what they have read from those men that gives them comfort and to explain why. That is the best second chance I can give those authors.
To be fair, Buddhism itself has a reputation of being a "downer." The very concept of a beginningless samsara and rebirth is enough to horrify many people who when they learn of it won't touch Buddhism with a 10 foot pole. Given your envy of Christian cosmology, it sounds like your problem is with Buddhist cosmology rather than Ven. T himself. And maybe your problem with Buddhist cosmology colors your perception of the people who talk about it and all things "Buddhist" in general.

Perhaps what is also worth pondering is that perceptions of people or things being inherently negative are your perceptions. What I'm emphasizing here is that their source is in your mind, not elsewhere. What you see as negative doesn't have the attribute of negativity inherent to it, rather that attribute is born from your own perceptions. I know this is obvious but it bears repeating.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by Spiny Norman »

soapy3 wrote: Luckily, I knew about Ajahn Brahm.
He's my favourite Theravada teacher these days, but I've also got a lot from other teachers over the years. I think we're lucky to have access to so many actually.
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by Anagarika »

Soapy, my sense of where you're coming from is the way that you, and I'm sure others, perceive the written and video presentations of Ajahn Geoff, and compare that style to the way that Ajahn Brahm writes and teaches on his BSWA site. I have always felt it fortunate, auspicious, that we have both of these monks teaching in our time, along of course with so many other excellent monks and nuns.

Ajahn Geoff has always come across to me as akin to one of my graduate school professors. Sometimes a bit intimidating, but behind the scene much warmer and friendly with colleagues, yet a source of knowledge that is of great value. Ajahn Brahm is more akin to the medical doctor that truly knows his stuff, trained well, is well disciplined, but also learned that part of the delivery of the medicine is a great "bedside manner."

For me, if I have a general sense of wellbeing and am looking for some strengthening of my Dhamma academics, Ajahn Geoff is usually my go-to-monk for Sutta study and Dhammic information. On the other hand, if I am having a rough day, or experiencing some inner turmoil that I just can't seem to shake off, I am more apt to turn to one of Ajahn Brahm's talks on "letting go," or a similar subject. Certainly, he has stated that people in distress or suffering the loss or potential loss of a loved one, have come to him to say that his books or talks saved them from extended grief, or worse. My guess is that at some point in his monastic life, he understood that the way into people's heart and minds was through teaching Dhamma in light of everyday experience, everyday ups and downs, and with some humor interlaced. He's a storyteller with great wisdom, like the Irish seanachi, while Ajahn Geoff, to me, is the dean of the graduate school.

I've noted before that I have spent time at Wat Metta, and been around Ajahn Geoff when he gently teases one of his young monks to a chorus of laughter from the lay gallery. He's not humorless, at all. It's just that Ajahn Brahm may be your go-to-monk when life is hitting a rough spot, and you need both the wise doctor and the bedside cheer to keep you positive and seeing the bright side of life. This is not two Buddhisms, but one Dhamma that is fortunately being disseminated by two very different, but equally compelling teachers.
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Soapy,
soapy3 wrote:
VinceField wrote: Since you are bringing this idea to the table (that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings have a negative tone), why don't you provide us with some specific quotes in which you find to be negative.
If I wrote "all of it" or "most of it" you would think I was being flippant where I was not. I really think you could begin with any of his writings. I'm not the only one who has that view of his TB's work. TB, rightfully or wrongfully has a reputation as being a downer.

Tone, choice of words, and the content he frequently focuses on. I've read his stuff since the 90s and I never came away with a "I'm charged up, let me leave the house and embrace life" feeling from anything he ever wrote. At best neutral. Reading his stuff, I get the unconscious sentence "Life is miserable, learn to hate your feeling, learn to hate your desires, cultivate a sense of urgency about standing on guard against yourself, and you may be lucky enough to die and stay dead by achieving nibanna."....
I'm a little puzzled why, if you find TB's approach depressing, you don't just ignore him. After all, he's just one of thousands of wonderful teachers out there. If you prefer AB's style, go with that.

I've sometimes listened to recorded talks by highly respected teachers and found that I just didn't connect. They seemed to me to drone on and on incoherently. Yet others found them inspiring. I'm not going to make a list, since it's just my reaction to the recordings. Furthermore, live, the impression may be quite different. I met Ajahn Brahm briefly some years ago when he did a weekend of talks and meditation in Hong Kong. Before that, just listening to recordings, I thought his talks seemed a bit shallow. Live, however, it was clear that he had a depth and seriousness behind the bad jokes.

I would encourage you to spend some, or more, time with live teachers. There are lots out there. They don't have to be famous.

:anjali:
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by DhammaOS »

I will admit Thanissaro Bhikku seems a bit blunt, but I don't really measure him as a downer, simply, a stern teacher, think someone said something along the lines of a fatherly figure type thing? I like them both for different reasons, Ajahn Brahm is very uplifting and lighthearted, and TB is very factual,straight, but surprisingly contemplative. We are fortunate to have access to a wide variety of teachers and their talks thanks to the internet.
"There are, O monks, these four lights. What four? The light of the moon, the light of the sun, the light of fire, and the light of wisdom. Of these four lights, the light of wisdom is supreme."-AN 4:143

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SarathW
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by SarathW »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Soapy,
soapy3 wrote:
VinceField wrote: Since you are bringing this idea to the table (that Thanissaro Bhikkhu's teachings have a negative tone), why don't you provide us with some specific quotes in which you find to be negative.
If I wrote "all of it" or "most of it" you would think I was being flippant where I was not. I really think you could begin with any of his writings. I'm not the only one who has that view of his TB's work. TB, rightfully or wrongfully has a reputation as being a downer.

Tone, choice of words, and the content he frequently focuses on. I've read his stuff since the 90s and I never came away with a "I'm charged up, let me leave the house and embrace life" feeling from anything he ever wrote. At best neutral. Reading his stuff, I get the unconscious sentence "Life is miserable, learn to hate your feeling, learn to hate your desires, cultivate a sense of urgency about standing on guard against yourself, and you may be lucky enough to die and stay dead by achieving nibanna."....
I'm a little puzzled why, if you find TB's approach depressing, you don't just ignore him. After all, he's just one of thousands of wonderful teachers out there. If you prefer AB's style, go with that.

I've sometimes listened to recorded talks by highly respected teachers and found that I just didn't connect. They seemed to me to drone on and on incoherently. Yet others found them inspiring. I'm not going to make a list, since it's just my reaction to the recordings. Furthermore, live, the impression may be quite different. I met Ajahn Brahm briefly some years ago when he did a weekend of talks and meditation in Hong Kong. Before that, just listening to recordings, I thought his talks seemed a bit shallow. Live, however, it was clear that he had a depth and seriousness behind the bad jokes.

I would encourage you to spend some, or more, time with live teachers. There are lots out there. They don't have to be famous.

:anjali:
Mike
:goodpost: Mike.
:)

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**Should I add "except Buddha"
May be not.
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soapy3
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by soapy3 »

mikenz66 wrote: I'm a little puzzled why, if you find TB's approach depressing, you don't just ignore him. After all, he's just one of thousands of wonderful teachers out there. If you prefer AB's style, go with that.
Hi Mike. I got interested in Buddhism in the 90s. There were a lot less options back then. Most of the resources for reading about Theravada were small bits offered by meditation teachers in popular books, translations & essays by TB on Access To Insight, and translations and essays by Bhikkhu Bodhi who I have similar problems with. Both men provided me, as well as many others, with a good, and freely offered education about Theravada, but their styles left me with the impressions that I now have.
soapy3
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by soapy3 »

Mkoll wrote: To be fair, Buddhism itself has a reputation of being a "downer." The very concept of a beginningless samsara and rebirth is enough to horrify many people who when they learn of it won't touch Buddhism with a 10 foot pole.
Theravada does. I've heard different about other forms of Buddhism. Samsara & rebirth do not personally sound bad to me. Trouble is I just don't believe in rebirth. I'm not hostile to the idea, but I haven't had experiences to convince me of the truth. If I had such a belief, I would have had a lot more comfort this summer when my father's life and other things ended. In that situation situation TB's writings would have simply been something expressed in a way not to my liking.
Given your envy of Christian cosmology, it sounds like your problem is with Buddhist cosmology rather than Ven. T himself. And maybe your problem with Buddhist cosmology colors your perception of the people who talk about it and all things "Buddhist" in general.
I think you have a point. Without a sense of conviction in rebirth and nibanna, the only emotional comfort Buddhism had to offer me this summer was that if I survived those hard times I might be able with continued practice to become well adjusted enough that the next set of inevitable deaths and endings would phase me less. Not much comfort.
Perhaps what is also worth pondering is that perceptions of people or things being inherently negative are your perceptions. What I'm emphasizing here is that their source is in your mind, not elsewhere. What you see as negative doesn't have the attribute of negativity inherent to it, rather that attribute is born from your own perceptions. I know this is obvious but it bears repeating.
I can't agree with you there. I think a lot of it is the terminology TB chooses. For example "defilements" versus "hindrances". "Defilements" sounds puritanical to me. I have to purify myself of "defilements" ( my mental qualities, my emotions, desires, who I am ) to achieve a better state. That just sounds negatively the way it is put to me. Even "hindrances" is not that great. While not technically correct as to translating Pali, Ajahn Brahm had a talk I listened after I learned my father had cancer. I was out walking at 2am while listening to it. He described the hindrances and adversities as "teachers". "Ajahn Mosquitos" to describe his own difficulties as a young monk in the jungle. "Ajahn Dad" for me. Much less negative, some hope, some empowerment. I don't know if I am clear.
soapy3
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by soapy3 »

Anagarika wrote: Ajahn Geoff has always come across to me as akin to one of my graduate school professors. Sometimes a bit intimidating, but behind the scene much warmer and friendly with colleagues, yet a source of knowledge that is of great value. Ajahn Brahm is more akin to the medical doctor that truly knows his stuff, trained well, is well disciplined, but also learned that part of the delivery of the medicine is a great "bedside manner."

For me, if I have a general sense of wellbeing and am looking for some strengthening of my Dhamma academics, Ajahn Geoff is usually my go-to-monk for Sutta study and Dhammic information. On the other hand, if I am having a rough day, or experiencing some inner turmoil that I just can't seem to shake off, I am more apt to turn to one of Ajahn Brahm's talks on "letting go," or a similar subject. Certainly, he has stated that people in distress or suffering the loss or potential loss of a loved one, have come to him to say that his books or talks saved them from extended grief, or worse. My guess is that at some point in his monastic life, he understood that the way into people's heart and minds was through teaching Dhamma in light of everyday experience, everyday ups and downs, and with some humor interlaced. He's a storyteller with great wisdom, like the Irish seanachi, while Ajahn Geoff, to me, is the dean of the graduate school.

I've noted before that I have spent time at Wat Metta, and been around Ajahn Geoff when he gently teases one of his young monks to a chorus of laughter from the lay gallery. He's not humorless, at all. It's just that Ajahn Brahm may be your go-to-monk when life is hitting a rough spot, and you need both the wise doctor and the bedside cheer to keep you positive and seeing the bright side of life. This is not two Buddhisms, but one Dhamma that is fortunately being disseminated by two very different, but equally compelling teachers.
I agree with 100% of what you wrote.

At this point in my life I want inspiration and real emotional change.

When I was told my father would be dead in a week when I had my own health issues and a relationship problem I realized that years of reading people like TB as well as Bhikku Bodhi did not prepare me for the hard realities of life ( yes, I am a meditator, I have a very old and strong practice ). Real life gave me the very hard and humbling lesson that despite my conceits, that I really don't accept change or death. That lack has really hurt me the last few months, literally. I got sick with stress. I don't see emotional resilience coming from indulging in the graduate professors dry theoretical writings to stay with your analogies.

Reading TB's and Bhikkhu Bodhi's dry writings, their sutta translations these many past years has been fun, but now what I really want is something that will actually prepare me for the next round of life's bad sides. When the rubber hits the road.

Maybe the sad fact is that you just have to live through hurtful crap if you want to adapt to it.
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by culaavuso »

soapy3 wrote:I think a lot of it is the terminology TB chooses. For example "defilements" versus "hindrances". "Defilements" sounds puritanical to me. I have to purify myself of "defilements" ( my mental qualities, my emotions, desires, who I am ) to achieve a better state. That just sounds negatively the way it is put to me. Even "hindrances" is not that great.
Both teachers use both terms since they are translations of different Pāḷi words. The word "defilement" is generally a translation of kilesa and "hindrance" is generally a translation of nīvaraṇa. Hindrances seem to be discussed more often in contexts dealing with jhāna and concentration, while defilements seem to be discussed more in contexts dealing with desire in general.
Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu wrote: To escape the double bind mentioned above — the fact that the hindrances blind one to one's own true best interests, and yet one needs to see those true interests if one is to overcome the hindrances — one must depend on all five faculties as one has been able to develop them. Conviction is needed so that one will listen to the advice of those who point out the drawbacks of the hindrances. A certain momentum of persistence, as right exertion, is needed so that one will make the effort to abandon the hindrance as soon as one is aware that it has arisen and before it grows into anything stronger. Mindfulness, based on the frames of reference, is needed so that one can be alert to the arising of the hindrances and can remember why they should be abandoned in the first place. This mindfulness can be strengthened by remembering the teachings of others who have pointed out the drawbacks of the hindrances — the many similes for the hindrances given in passages §§131-134 and §138 serve the purpose of keeping those memories vivid. It can also be strengthened by remembering the drawbacks of the hindrances as encountered in one's own personal experience: the damage that has come when another person has given in to them, and the things that one regrets having done oneself when under their influence.
Ven. Ajahn Brahm wrote: A maechee does not have as many rules of restraint (8-10 vs. 311 precepts). And what we are restraining are the outflows of the mind; we’re restraining the defilements. So in one very profound sense, when one makes that transition, even from a novice to a bhikkhu, or maechee to a bhikkhuni, those extra rules of restraint are very helpful in lessening one’s defilements. You’re putting your kilesas (defilements) in a more confined compound so they cannot play around as much. You’re restraining them. And that’s why we have a sangha of monks that are in the forest tradition, which keep the rules stricter than monks in the city. Because of that greater restraint of the senses and defilements, you usually find that it’s the monks in the forest that gain the deeper attainments in meditation and also enlightenment.
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by Mkoll »

culaavuso wrote:Hindrances seem to be discussed more often in contexts dealing with jhāna and concentration
They also seem to be discussed in apposition, even opposition, with the 7 factors of enlightenment.
SN 46.24 wrote:“Bhikkhus, when one attends carelessly, unarisen sensual desire arises and arisen sensual desire increases and expands; when one attends carelessly, unarisen ill will arises and arisen ill will increases and expands; when one attends carelessly, unarisen sloth and torpor arise and arisen sloth and torpor increase and expand; when one attends carelessly, unarisen restlessness and remorse arise and arisen restlessness and remorse increase and expand; when one attends carelessly, unarisen doubt arises and arisen doubt increases and expands. Also, the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness does not arise and the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness ceases ... the unarisen enlightenment factor of equanimity does not arise and the arisen enlightenment factor of equanimity ceases.

“When one attends carefully, bhikkhus, unarisen sensual desire does not arise and arisen sensual desire is abandoned. When one attends carefully, unarisen ill will … sloth and torpor … restlessness and remorse ... doubt does not arise and arisen doubt is abandoned. Also, the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development … the unarisen enlightenment factor of equanimity arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of equanimity comes to fulfilment by development.”
With many more examples in the Bojjhaṅgasaṃyutta.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by Dan74 »

soapy3 wrote:
Anagarika wrote: Ajahn Geoff has always come across to me as akin to one of my graduate school professors. Sometimes a bit intimidating, but behind the scene much warmer and friendly with colleagues, yet a source of knowledge that is of great value. Ajahn Brahm is more akin to the medical doctor that truly knows his stuff, trained well, is well disciplined, but also learned that part of the delivery of the medicine is a great "bedside manner."

For me, if I have a general sense of wellbeing and am looking for some strengthening of my Dhamma academics, Ajahn Geoff is usually my go-to-monk for Sutta study and Dhammic information. On the other hand, if I am having a rough day, or experiencing some inner turmoil that I just can't seem to shake off, I am more apt to turn to one of Ajahn Brahm's talks on "letting go," or a similar subject. Certainly, he has stated that people in distress or suffering the loss or potential loss of a loved one, have come to him to say that his books or talks saved them from extended grief, or worse. My guess is that at some point in his monastic life, he understood that the way into people's heart and minds was through teaching Dhamma in light of everyday experience, everyday ups and downs, and with some humor interlaced. He's a storyteller with great wisdom, like the Irish seanachi, while Ajahn Geoff, to me, is the dean of the graduate school.

I've noted before that I have spent time at Wat Metta, and been around Ajahn Geoff when he gently teases one of his young monks to a chorus of laughter from the lay gallery. He's not humorless, at all. It's just that Ajahn Brahm may be your go-to-monk when life is hitting a rough spot, and you need both the wise doctor and the bedside cheer to keep you positive and seeing the bright side of life. This is not two Buddhisms, but one Dhamma that is fortunately being disseminated by two very different, but equally compelling teachers.
I agree with 100% of what you wrote.

At this point in my life I want inspiration and real emotional change.

When I was told my father would be dead in a week when I had my own health issues and a relationship problem I realized that years of reading people like TB as well as Bhikku Bodhi did not prepare me for the hard realities of life ( yes, I am a meditator, I have a very old and strong practice ). Real life gave me the very hard and humbling lesson that despite my conceits, that I really don't accept change or death. That lack has really hurt me the last few months, literally. I got sick with stress. I don't see emotional resilience coming from indulging in the graduate professors dry theoretical writings to stay with your analogies.

Reading TB's and Bhikkhu Bodhi's dry writings, their sutta translations these many past years has been fun, but now what I really want is something that will actually prepare me for the next round of life's bad sides. When the rubber hits the road.

Maybe the sad fact is that you just have to live through hurtful crap if you want to adapt to it.
Yes, I think these are just the realities of practice for all of us. It's tough, especially at times like these and can feel devastating (in my experience), but ultimately we are very fortunate to know the Dhamma, to have the clarity to eventually see through these snags and move on.

And I agree - these teachers are to be treasured - they are both genuine article IMO though of course not completely perfect.
_/|\_
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Re: 2 Buddhisms? Ajahn Brahm and Thanisarro Bhikkhu

Post by VinceField »

soapy3 wrote: At this point in my life I want inspiration and real emotional change.

When I was told my father would be dead in a week when I had my own health issues and a relationship problem I realized that years of reading people like TB as well as Bhikku Bodhi did not prepare me for the hard realities of life ( yes, I am a meditator, I have a very old and strong practice ). Real life gave me the very hard and humbling lesson that despite my conceits, that I really don't accept change or death. That lack has really hurt me the last few months, literally. I got sick with stress. I don't see emotional resilience coming from indulging in the graduate professors dry theoretical writings to stay with your analogies.

Reading TB's and Bhikkhu Bodhi's dry writings, their sutta translations these many past years has been fun, but now what I really want is something that will actually prepare me for the next round of life's bad sides. When the rubber hits the road.

Maybe the sad fact is that you just have to live through hurtful crap if you want to adapt to it.
Inspiration comes from understanding the Dhamma and the importance of applying it to one's life. This is made extremely clear in Thanissaro's teachings.

The emotional change you are seeking comes from applying the Buddha's teachings. The admission that you do not accept change or death is an indicator that you have not fully understood or applied the teachings.

It would seem that your issues are more with the Dhamma itself, rather than any particular teacher. For example, your aversion to the ideas of defilements and hindrances. These are basic to the Buddha's teachings and taught by all teachers of the Dhamma, not to mention crucial to fully understand, contemplate, and apply to one's own practice if any significant progress is to be made on the path.

Buddhism isn't about cheering people up with comforting words when they have had a bad day or are met with an unfortunate circumstance, nor is it about dressing up the tough issues in life in happy and colorful clothing. Buddhism is about understanding the mind's fabrications and how they create suffering, developing clear perception, and developing skillful strategies for cultivating pure and wholesome states of mind.

It seems to me that a better application of the Buddha's teachings would be of most assistance to you, regardless of the teacher. Whether it's Brahm, Thanissaro, Bhodi, or any other Theravada teacher, the underlying dhamma is essentially the same. If you need your teacher to make jokes and ramble on with long personal stories to illustrate simple concepts, then Thanissaro is not your guy. I personally like my teachings concise, direct, and potent, which is why I go with Thanissaro.
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