Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

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mikenz66
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by mikenz66 »

BlackBird wrote: Then the simple argument is that when you closely scrutinize the Visuddhimagga, lay it beside the Suttas and compare it with the Vinaya, it's a perfect fit to the Suttas, and agrees wholeheartedly with the Vinaya.
Yes, the Tradition would say that one looks at the layers:
1. Vinaya/Sutta/Abhidhamma
2. Ancient Commentary
3. Later works
If there is a contradiction, then the earlier layer "wins".

The Visuddhimagga is in a slightly odd position because it is not technically part of the ancient commentary, even though it is largely a summary of it.

See this guide to post canonical literature:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... guide.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
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BlackBird
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by BlackBird »

Manapa wrote: Hi Jack
this is something I am unsure of? I do know that BPS do allow great chunks of work to be reproduced (as in full or almost full copies see google books) but I don't read russan. here is a preview (I think it is about half) http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=C389 ... q=&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and yes it is the same book again.
Dear Manapa, that sounds logical. I ended up downloading it, but maybe we should email BPS and ask what the story is?

Also thank you Mike.

Metta to you all and :anjali:
Jack
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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EOD
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by EOD »

Chris wrote:As there were no texts at the time of the Buddha, I'm not sure what you are referring to ~ Please post for us the relevant quotes you are referring to.
DN 16:
"In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."
I don't want to quarrel whether the Visuddhimagga (Ven. Buddhaghosa) meets this standard or not. My point was that the Visuddhimagga (and any other commentary) doesn't belong to the authoritative texts but to the texts which need authorization (by comparing them with the words of the Buddha).

Best wishes,

EOD
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Cittasanto »

mikenz66 wrote: The Visuddhimagga is in a slightly odd position because it is not technically part of the ancient commentary, even though it is largely a summary of it.

Mike
Hi Mike & All
just a note on the Vism, I have been told By an Anerican Burmese Monk (Burmese tradition and living there) that the translation has some gramatical errors which alter the meaning, so some of the passages which can be cited to prove Buddhaghosa didn't know what he was talking about (to put it one way) may acctually be due to the gramatical errors in the translation process and when corrected do acctually lye well with the Suttas - but this may be a matter of opinion, and may not be accurate as the person who looked over the work wasn't a native english speaker, and as I don't know how fluent he is in translating pali to english may pose some doubts, although I do trust the Ashin who told be about it.
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by jcsuperstar »

i bought the american version of the BPS one then got the same book free in hardcover from a chinese group, though i dont think they give them out anymore as it's a huge book and they can probably print and give out more smaller books for the same price. i ended up getting rid of my bought copy and kept the free one...

so sometimes this book is free, but thinking someone should print this monster and make it free for people is absurd, its a huge book and probably costs a lot to publish, and ship.

maybe some of the more well off lay buddhists should get together to start a printing co op
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Individual »

jcsuperstar wrote: so sometimes this book is free, but thinking someone should print this monster and make it free for people is absurd, its a huge book and probably costs a lot to publish, and ship.
To print, of course. But once the book has been scanned (something that can be done cheaply or even free, with the right equipment and know-how), how much does it cost to host a website? Text is extremely small data. The entire Tipitaka itself, if it's in plaintext, would only be something like a few megabytes. If it's a PDF, it might be a bit more.

When you consider the fact that Crosswalk.com has 29 different translations of the Bible for free online, there are also numerous versions of the Qu'ran online, and Chabad.org (a Jewish site) has their own extensive library (no Talmud, though, unfortunately!), it seems pretty plausible that Buddhists could at least have certain texts like the Visuddhimagga and the Digha Nikaya online.
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Nyanatusita
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Nyanatusita »

Hello,

Jack kindly informed me about this thread. I have been a member of this forum from the start, but because of many other duties with respect to the Buddhist Publication Society (BPS), of which I am the English editor, etc, I have little time and had not noticed this thread.

As regards the question why the Path of Purification is not put online for free: It will be put online as a PDF for free on the BPS website and the Access to Insight website. Hopefully somewhere next year when the newly typeset and slightly revised printed edition will be put out.
Those who quickly scan in books and put them online as PDFs such as the Russian who scanned in the latest edition of the Path of Purification (1991) and put it online without having asked for permission to the BPS (Manapa gives the link) don't realize the huge amount of work it is to proofread, format and typeset a book, especially a large and complicated book like the Path of Purification with its many headings and styles, etc. They also don't realize the cost of printing and distributing the book and the cost of maintaining an non profit publishing organization such as the BPS.

The Path of Purification printed in by the Corporate Foundation of the Buddha in Taiwan, to which one of the posts in this forum refers, is a photocopy edition done without the permission of the BPS. The Corporate Foundation of the Buddha is careless with respects copyrights and has photocopy-reprinted several BPS books such as the Great Discourse of Causation by Ven. Bodhi without seeking permission to the BPS.
The BPS is generally lenient in giving permission to reprint its books and regularly gives permission to organizations in Malaysia and Singapore to reprint books for free distribution. The BPS is also making all of its Wheel Publications and some other books available online on its website (http://www.bps.lk/onlinelibrary.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), a project which I have been organizing and which takes a lot of work. Many BPS books are also viewable on Google Books. The problem with putting larger books online is that it takes a lot of work and funds to produce them and there is the concern that organizations such as the Corporate Foundation will use the online digital files to reproduce the books without asking permission and that the BPS and its distributors in the US and Europe end up with stocks of books which can not be sold because everybody has already got the free books from our Mahayana friends in Taiwan. Another problem with making books available online for free is that everybody starts to copy it to their own websites with little effort, and sometimes without properly acknowledging the source website.
I hope to find some kind of middle way between making Dhamma books available online for free and on the other hand keeping the BPS going as an organization dedicated to publishing Dhamma books.

Regards,
Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
Editor
BPS







mikenz66 wrote:It says $20 at http://www.bps.lk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a non-profit orgainization. Note that they have put many of their publications up as PDFs:
http://www.bps.lk/book_index.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also see: http://www.bps.lk/ourpublications.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For the last year, the BPS has been busy digitalising, typesetting, and reprinting many of its publications that have gone out of print. We intend to digitalise most of our older publications and then make them available either as good quality printed books or as free online publications both in html and pdf formats. Eventually, all Wheel publications will be combined and republished as books. An online ordering catalogue is being created to enable our readers to order our printed books online through this website.
I'm not sure whether they intend to do this with the VM. Personally, I'd rather pay the order of 30USD for a nicely-bound version than print and bind it myself (which would probably be more expensive). I'd love to have a searchable PDF on my computer of course...

Mike
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,

Thanks for the good work! :thumbsup:

I do hope that it will remain practical to publish texts in book form because I find books far more convenient for reading on the train.

Which reminds me, I've got a decent sized order to make through BPS tomorrow... nice timing!

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Ben »

Thank you Bhante for your hard work and the work of everyone involved at BPS.
It is greatly appreciated.
metta

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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by appicchato »

Ben wrote:Thank you Bhante for your hard work and the work of everyone involved at BPS.
It is greatly appreciated.
metta
Wholeheartedly in agreement...
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by DNS »

Nyanatusita wrote: I hope to find some kind of middle way between making Dhamma books available online for free and on the other hand keeping the BPS going as an organization dedicated to publishing Dhamma books.
Sadhu!

:anjali:

:bow:
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Individual »

Nyanatusita wrote: I hope to find some kind of middle way between making Dhamma books available online for free and on the other hand keeping the BPS going as an organization dedicated to publishing Dhamma books.
That seems reasonable, but once a translation of a basic text of Buddhism, like the Visuddhimagga, has existed for several years, I don't understand the justification for not releasing it to the public. It would be strange if this "middleground" involved keeping translations of the most integral, vital texts of Buddhism copyrighted, while releasing small portions and modern commentaries. You look at the Tipitaka at Metta.lk and tipitaka.wikia.com. If other entities can release their own versions of these texts, couldn't BPS do the same? I don't doubt that a lack of funds would hinder further publishing and translating, but since the translations have largely already been made and digital material online proliferates more widely than traditional books on paper, it seems that releasing the core texts would have benefits that outweigh any disadvantages.
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings bhante,

Thanks for the good work! :thumbsup:

I do hope that it will remain practical to publish texts in book form because I find books far more convenient for reading on the train.
It depends on your income level. Amazon has an ebook reader called Kindle and I believe the iPhone, Blackberry, and similar mobile devices have similar software, which makes it possible to carry a library of books wherever you go. Also, no worry about papercuts or messed up pages. Just as paper mail and newspapers are becoming outdated technologies, I suspect that in the future, these types of devices will become standard.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Individual,

Sounds a bit too Gen Y for me... :tongue:

I like my books and I like my CDs! Happy to get things in digital format, but I'm not paying for them.

Metta,
Retro X :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Individual »

To demonstrate my above point a bit further, by the way, I just came across a video that demonstrates a similar case:
http://fora.tv/2009/09/23/Free_Conomics ... s_Anderson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The editor-in-chief or WIRED Magazine talks about how Microsoft has actually benefited financially from software piracy. And China, too, benefited. Now, look at what the BPS produces, consider who pirates it and why, and then think about how the same type of situation might apply in this case.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by pink_trike »

Individual is making very sensible points. Once a manuscript has been published there exists a digital format of the document that could easily be converted into one or a series of PDF files that can be easily distributed via websites or file sharing networks (btw, the prudish idea held by many Buddhists that file sharing networks are "bad" is just foolish - millions of legal files are shared every day. It's not the tool, it's the intention).

A common reason for not doing this is the mistaken belief that book sales will slow down and thus profits will be negatively impacted. Research has shown that this isn't the case...Buddhist organizations who publish for profit should be aware that the reverse is actually true. Downloads fuel print book sales, sometimes enormously.

Protecting the copyright is a whole different story, of course...and it is quickly becoming an archaic notion - and imo not sufficient reason to withhold release of an electronic version of Dharma books.

Profit and ownership are very interesting subjects regarding publishing in these changing times...especially for Buddhist organizations. Who claims the right to own the Dharma...and to litigate in order to protect that ownership for the primary purpose of protecting against (imagined) loss of profit? There now exists the means to put the Dharma in easy reach of nearly 2 billion people and growing daily. We'll see if Buddhist organizations step up to the plate...
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