Dependent Origination

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby robertk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:09 am

clw_uk wrote:Is there a sutta in the pali canon excluding the abhidhamma that states that cause and effect can have a large time delay?

Thousands of suttas. Just one example:
"
Threefold, however, is the fruit of karma: ripening
during the life-time (dittha-dhamma-vedaníya-kamma),
ripening in the next birth (upapajja-vedaníya-kamma),
ripening in later births (aparápariya-vedaníya kamma)
...." (A.VI, 63).
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1210
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:19 am

Dhammanando wrote:But what is the relationship between the two kinds of right view? According to Buddhadāsa and his circle there's none whatsoever; they're two unrelated doctrines that the Buddha taught to different types of persons – one a doctrine conducive to morality and the other a doctrine of liberation. And so if it's liberation one is after, then according to this interpretation, mundane right view will be of no interest at all; indeed it will be counterproductive, for holding it ineluctably makes one an eternalist. Have I got it right?

Venerable Dhammanando

Given you have asked the question, I must reply of course you have not got it right. Your post to me is full of presumption.

If you can find a reference or source to support your claims against Buddhadasa and 'his circle' then you may possibly have a point.

It is best to discuss realities rather than imaginings.

With metta,

Element

P.S. The Lord Buddha has advised in the sutta mundane right view leads to merit, becoming & asava. In other words, it alone cannot lead to liberation. Similarly, being concerned with making merit for future lives rather than extinguishing self-view here & now will not lead to liberation. Regarding meritorious action being the foundation for the path, that is a given.
Element
 

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:34 am

Or alternatively translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu...

“The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right
here & now, that which arises later, and that which arises following that.”
— AN 6:63

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14626
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Will » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:36 am

Element wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:But what is the relationship between the two kinds of right view? According to Buddhadāsa and his circle there's none whatsoever; they're two unrelated doctrines that the Buddha taught to different types of persons – one a doctrine conducive to morality and the other a doctrine of liberation. And so if it's liberation one is after, then according to this interpretation, mundane right view will be of no interest at all; indeed it will be counterproductive, for holding it ineluctably makes one an eternalist. Have I got it right?

Venerable Dhammanando

Given you have asked the question, I must reply of course you have not got it right. Your post to me is full of presumption.

If you can find a reference or source to support your claims against Buddhadasa and 'his circle' then you may possibly have a point.

It is best to discuss realities rather than imaginings.

With metta,

Element

P.S. The Lord Buddha has advised in the sutta mundane right view leads to merit, becoming & asava. In other words, it alone cannot lead to liberation. Similarly, being concerned with making merit for future lives rather than extinguishing self-view here & now will not lead to liberation. Regarding meritorious action being the foundation for the path, that is a given.


Element,

The Bhante has every right, as does anyone who has read your & Stuka's posts over time to describe your views as he has. Whether here or at another online group, you two have only sneered at the mundane right view of literal rebirth (and those who value that view) and promoted exclusively your Buddhadasa-ism of D.O. (as momentary arising) as you see it, as the only proper path of practice.

I note you have avoided writing the correct "reality" above to offset the "imagined" view given. No one knows your mind better than you, so why not clearly & concisely write your view, so no one else will get it wrong.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:32 am

The buddha does talk about descent in to the womb an such like in the Mahanidana sutta when talking about the DO. But at the same time, there are suttas which say that the elements of the DO can be seen in the here and now (okkantasamyutta) by stream entrants. Now all stream entrants are not endowed with any special capabilities enabling them to see past lives. Therefore the conclusion is that some elements which correspond to past life elements can be seen happening now, in this life. For example sankhara (mental fabrications- intentions) giving rise to consciousness. In the past life model this is supposed to mean karmic intentions of a past life giving rise to the first spark of consciousness in the womb. However the closest approximation we can come to this is to see intentions in this life giving rise to consciousness at any of the sense bases. This can be done by vipassana aimed at seeing the process of perception.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:41 am

rowyourboat wrote:The buddha does talk about descent in to the womb an such like in the Mahanidana sutta when talking about the DO.


My opinion is the Mahanidana sutta is one sutta distinct from scores of others on the subject. Plus it is in the Digha Nikaya, which appears to be precursor to the Mahayana Suttas and thus doubtful if spoken by the Buddha. If so, it was spoken to Ananda, who was unenlightened and not ready for stream entry.

Also, discerning reality is something to be considered. For example, when we look at our body with our eyes, both actually or in a mirror, we are not actually experiencing the body thus there is no existence of the body. When we look at our body, we are merely experiencing a sight via the eye and eye consciousness.

However, in meditation, when consciousness descends into the body itself, then the mind directly experiences the body via the body sense organ and body consciousness. For example, in the first satipatthana, Buddha uses the phrase "experiencing all bodies" or "experiencing the whole body". The mind is the same in cittanupassana. Unless consciousness descends or enters within the body & mind itself, there is no direct experience or existence of the body-mind.

For most human beings, the body is something seen via the eye and the mind something heard via the ear. As such, there is no arising of nama-rupa.

Just my ecsoteric opinion, which I cannot spell.

For your consideration,

Element
Element
 

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:55 pm

clw_uk wrote:
If you are saying that the body refers to literal physical body/birth there is a sutta that states that the physical body originates from the 4 elements.

"The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the material form aggregate"



Yes, the physical body is form (rupa) You've left out 4 other aggregates which are name (nama) . You are a physicalist.

-M
meindzai
 
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Fruitzilla » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:15 pm

meindzai wrote:
You are a physicalist.

-M


Not to be anal, but it seems to me that using "you are" in this way in a presumably buddhist discussion seems to be rather unskilfull.
Isn't "you're holding a physicalist view" more in tune with reality (anatta/anicca and such)?

I've often seen this and wonder about it everytime so I thouht i'd put it to words.

Cheers,
:toast:
Fruitzilla
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:21 pm

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:00 pm

I can assure you that i am not a physcialist, i was merely talking about rupa and not the other aggregates.

:namaste:
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Jason » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:13 pm

meindzai wrote:You are a physicalist.


Nice ad hominem, M.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

leaves in the hand (Buddhist-related blog)
leaves in the forest (non-Buddhist related blog)
User avatar
Jason
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:09 am
Location: Earth

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:35 pm

Element wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:The buddha does talk about descent in to the womb an such like in the Mahanidana sutta when talking about the DO.


My opinion is the Mahanidana sutta is one sutta distinct from scores of others on the subject. Plus it is in the Digha Nikaya, which appears to be precursor to the Mahayana Suttas and thus doubtful if spoken by the Buddha. If so, it was spoken to Ananda, who was unenlightened and not ready for stream entry.
Element

If that is your opinion, there's always MN9, Sammaditthi Sutta, and presumably some others...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html
26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

Metta
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10136
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:46 pm

Isnt the "[in the womb] but something that has been added?

As for the bit that says acquisition of the aggregates, i see this as the new sense of "I" takes these up.
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:05 pm

Of course, you can interpret it as you wish. However you're ignoring the "spheres of various beings" and so on.

It doesn't matter to me what you and Element believe. However, it is important for readers to understand that your interpretations disagree with the standard Theravada interpretation, so that they can make up their own mind.

Personally, I try to enter a discussion with this in mind:
MN95 Canki Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.


Metta
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10136
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:16 pm

Well i dont discount either interpretation as i can see that it can be interpreted both ways and still be viable and conductive.

I havent set in stone my understanding of D.O. as i am in no doubt that i still have much unknowing and so i am not appreciating it fully.I started this thread so that both sides could be voiced so people reading it could look at it from both angles which i feel can only be beneficial in the end.

:namaste:
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby gavesako » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:38 pm

I can recommend this article by Bhikkhu Bodhi for your consideration:

A Critical Examination of Ñānavīra Thera’s “A Note on Paticcasamuppada”
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/other/bodhi/
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
User avatar
gavesako
 
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm
Location: England

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:44 pm

Thanky you gavesako

:namaste:
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:47 pm

clw_uk wrote:I havent set in stone my understanding of D.O.

Craig

I have set in stone my understanding of D.O. I set it on the meditation cushion many years ago.

To borrow a phrase from Ajahn Buddhadasa about D.O. "it is mere plain science".

Best wishes

Element
Element
 

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:53 pm

I have only started to appreciate it from buddhadasa interpretation so cant make my mind up on it to quickly. At the moment both interpretations have convincing points and both seem logical. The main point for me is does kamma continue to have an effect past the physical death, once i settle that i think i can settle on how to take D.O.

I feel like developing an Sañjaya Belaṭṭhaputta attitude towards it :rolleye:
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:55 pm

mikenz66 wrote:If that is your opinion, there's always MN9, Sammaditthi Sutta, and presumably some others...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html

Hi Mike,

I must say I cannot see the connection with your quote from MN 9 and the matter being discussed, namely consciousness descending into the womb.

You have quoted the link about 'birth' from MN 9 whilst R.Y.B has quoted the link about 'nama-rupa' from the Digha Nikaya.

However, if we do wish to learn something about consciousness from MN 9, it states:
"And what is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness."

Thus, could you kindly advise me, which of these types of consciousness is the relinking or descending consciousness you are referring to?

Thank you

Element
Element
 

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:05 pm

Element wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I must say I cannot see the connection with your quote from MN 9 and the matter being discussed, namely consciousness descending into the womb.

Then we can continue to agree to differ on our interpretation of the Tipitika... :reading:

Best Wishes and Metta
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10136
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: clw_uk and 8 guests