Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Coyote
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by Coyote »

coreycook950 wrote: Like a flame's unbinding
was the liberation
of awareness.

Another translation:

By mortal pangs unshaken, His mind, like a flame extinguished, finds release. (Vajira and Story) (sorry can't seem to post urls at the moment).

"like a fire cooled is the liberation of his mind (cetaso)" would be my basic translation. No cosmic awareness in the Pali as far as I can see.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
freedom
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by freedom »

My English is very bad. Writing a story in English is really a nightmare for me. Please do not take this literally. Hope that someone may understand what I am trying to say. Of course, this is just a view, and there will be people who will have different views.

Annihilation will never make sense to many of us. However, let try to find something that we at least see some reasons for it.
Of course, it is impossible for us to know the truth because we are not “free” yet. However, we see that the first noble truth states that the five aggregates are dukkha. To end dukkha, we will need to end the five aggregates, so we can see the need for the annihilation of the five aggregates.

Let see if we can make up a “crazy” story to support this annihilation idea?
Assume that there is an “unknowable, indescribable” whatever. This is not an individual so we cannot call it anything (Just like photon/electron before any observation). For the sake of this story, we call that “unknowable, indescribable” whatever as “It”.
By some unknown reason (ignorance?), “It” has fallen into a forever “dream/hallucination”. In this “dream world”, “It” becomes a frog. “It” sees itself as a frog. “It” totally forgets itself. The frog lives in the dream world then “dies”. This time, “It” becomes a cow. The cow lives and dies. “It” then becomes a man… It has lived in a cycle like that forever from an unknowable beginning (samsara). Because “It” sees itself as a frog, a cow, a man, a deva … it never see the need to end the “dream”. As long as “It” sees itself as something, “it” will never know itself.

To the frog, the cow, the man, the dream world that they live in is as “real” as they can feel and see. They do not know that it is not “real” (Just like when we are in a dream).When “It” is in the dream, “It” lost its control over the dream. The frog becomes the cow because of the frog’s karma in the dream. The cow becomes the man because of the cow’s karma … This becoming is controlled by dependent origination. “It” does not have any control over this “becoming” process.

“It” cannot end the dream because “it” does not know “It” is in a dream, and it has no control over the dream. However, the “man” in the dream is the one who can end the dream if he knows the way to do so. To end the dream, he will need to end himself forever and not becoming anything else (annihilation! Of course, none of us want to end ourselves forever! We all want to become something). When the dream ended, “It” will wake up. (Is this why the Buddha is the “awakened one”?)
The frog, the cow, the man are not “real”. They are “creation, dependent arisen”. They are not “It” but they are “It”. “It” is the “real, unborn, uncreated” in the ultimate sense. “It” is NOT an individual, not a self! However, when “It” sees itself in the “dream worlds”, “It” becomes a self, an individual.

Even if the “man” can kill himself in the dream, he cannot annihilate himself because of craving: craving for sense desires, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence. With these cravings, he will become something else to experience that craving and the dream will continue (Dependent Origination).

If the man tries to become “It”, he cannot do so with craving. The only way is to let go of himself and not thinking about “It”.
So, when the frog, the cow, the man are dead then “who” is dead? When the dream is over, then who enters where?
We see that annihilation is not that bad. In fact, it is the most difficult thing (if not impossible) that we could do! We cannot annihilate ourselves even if we really want to do so! If we try to kill ourselves because of cravings, it will getting worse!

A man is an “arahant” when he is no longer see himself (the five aggregates) as “a man, I, or anything else”. He lives as if the five aggregates do not belong to him.

If this “crazy story” makes little sense, then annihilation may make sense. Therefore, there is still room for the reason of the annihilation.
This is just a view trying to make some sense for the annihilation of the self (the five aggregates). You may create better story than mine!
Last edited by freedom on Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
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mikenz66
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Corey,

You quote Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation of SN 6.15 here:
coreycook950 wrote: It was awe-inspiring.
It was hair-raising
when, displaying the foremost
accomplishment in all things,
the Rightly Self-Awakened One
was totally Unbound.
Translation of verse can be tricky. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates the verse as:
"Then there was terror,
Then there was trepidation,
When the one perfect in all excellent qualities,
The Buddha, attained final Nibbana."
And here is the translation by Bhikkhuni Uppalavanna from mettanet:
At the final extinction of the rightfully Enlightened One,
All kinds of noble things happened which inspired awe,
And my hairs stood on end.
As you can see, the different translations give quite a different impression, and I would not read too much into any of them without a careful study of the Pali original.

:anjali:
Mike
lonewolf
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by lonewolf »

What I think is that time is limited. I think it comes down to priorities. This issue doesn't register on my radar. Not worried about it in the least.
coreycook950
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by coreycook950 »

Thanks Mike.
coreycook950
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by coreycook950 »

Anyway, I shouldn't have used the word "cosmic" because it confused people.
At any rate it reads from the sutta that Buddha's reaching of parinibbana was the amazing event of final liberation of "the mind" or liberation of "awareness," depending on the translation.

It would be helpful if I could read the original Pali.
There are some Venerable Monks who study the Pali texts extensively. How or where did they learn Pali?

On a side note i'm looking forward to getting the PTS full Pali Canon set English translation someday.
Coyote
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by Coyote »

Coreycook:

Pali is: pajjotasseva nibbānaṃ, vimokkho cetaso ahū

Cetaso is the word translated as "mind" or "awareness" and according to the dictionary built into the DPR, functions as a genitive to "citta"

Ven. Thanissaro's translation as "awareness" seems to be a reflection of his "heretical" view that an unconditioned consciousness survives the parinibbāna of the arahant.

As for Pali study, check out the subforum - it's really fun to learn and you get a deeper understanding of the nuances of various translations.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
coreycook950
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by coreycook950 »

I think it's best to describe the death of an Arhat as the final cessation of the Five Aggregates which were the product of greed, hatred, and delusion. We should perhaps say that it's a state of utter peace, and leave it at that.

I was getting too wordy in my earlier posts.
coreycook950
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by coreycook950 »

I think this thread should be closed, not because I want the last word by any means, but because any attempt at describing what happens to the Arhat after death will fail to adequately describe what happens. The state of an Arhat after death is beyond elemental existence and escapes description. So I think not only have I caused some confusion by my futile attempt at putting the experience into words, but no one on the forums will be able to put the experience into words.

I'm not looking at this thread anymore. It's pointless speculation at this point.
waryoffolly
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by waryoffolly »

coreycook950 wrote:
It would be helpful if I could read the original Pali.
There are some Venerable Monks who study the Pali texts extensively. How or where did they learn Pali?
A.K. Warder's Introduction to Pali is pretty much (from my understanding) the best current pali textbook we've got, although it can be challenging for those unused to reading through textbooks. Also google for Bhikku Bodhi's free online intro pali course.
coreycook950
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by coreycook950 »

I'm going to drive myself crazy contemplating these things, but what do you guys think of this?
Am I crazy or is this legit?

Nibbana is a realm of equanimous bliss which transcends the sensual world of birth and death. It is a state of utter peace which is beyond pleasure, pain, or neutrality. It is not nothingness, but an ultimate state far removed from the trappings of worldly existence. It is a state of freedom and peace lacking nothing. It is a state in which you are never born, and as such you will never die. The five Skhandas no longer bind you. You are formless, and thus you are in a state of oneness with the formless underlying forces of nature which govern the Universe.

I'm going to ask Bhikku Bodhi if this is correct. I'll get back to you with his response...
:jumping:
santa100
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by santa100 »

coreycook950 wrote:I'm going to ask Bhikku Bodhi if this is correct. I'll get back to you with his response...
Unfortunately I don't think that's gonna work regardless of whether he has or has not experienced Nibbana himself. Please see Carl Sagan's excellent story about the "flatlanders" here. So until the day we've transcended the flatland world, it'd be safe to stick with the suttas' description of Nibbana here.
culaavuso
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by culaavuso »

coreycook950 wrote:The five Skhandas no longer bind you. You are formless, and thus you are in a state of oneness with the formless underlying forces of nature which govern the Universe.
These statements about what "you are" might be useful to compare with Ud 1.10:
Ud 1.10: Bāhiya Sutta wrote: When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.
The discussion of the formless could perhaps be usefully compared with Snp 3.12:
Snp 3.12: Dvayatānupassanā Sutta wrote: 'Formless phenomena are more peaceful than forms': this is one contemplation. 'Cessation is more peaceful than formless phenomena': this is a second contemplation. For a monk rightly contemplating this duality in this way — heedful, ardent, & resolute — one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance — non-return."

That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-gone, the Teacher, said further:

Those beings headed to forms,
and those standing in the formless,
with no knowledge of cessation,
return to further becoming.
Or perhaps with MN 140:
MN 140: Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta wrote: 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.
Or SN 22.36:
SN 22.36: Bhikkhu Sutta wrote: Monk, whatever one stays obsessed with, that's what one is measured by. Whatever one is measured by, that's how one is classified. Whatever one doesn't stay obsessed with, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified.
Or SN 44.2:
SN 44.2: Anurādha Sutta wrote: When this was said, Ven. Anuradha said to the wandering sectarians, "Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death."
...
"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."
coreycook950
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by coreycook950 »

Friends,

We shouldn't be attached to views about the afterlife. Even if we knew what happens, it wouldn't end our suffering. This is why Buddha didn't give us the information. Because it wouldn't be conductive to ending our suffering. Buddha is concerned about putting an end to our suffering. We should cultivate right mindfulness and awareness of the present moment- without attachment. This way we will be at peace.

Peace doesn't lie in having perfect knowledge of the Universe. Peace, Nibbana, comes from non-attachment. This includes non-attachment to views about the afterlife.

What Buddha revealed to us in the Pali Canon was a mere fraction of the entirety of his knowledge. But he revealed the information to us so that we could end our suffering.

So let's stop creating views and clinging to them, and practice the Dhamma.

I wish the moderator would close this thread.
gben
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Re: Survival of the Arhat: mixing ultimate and conventional.

Post by gben »

Sacha G wrote:Hi
The question "Does the arhat survive after death" seems at first a legitimate question.

What thinks about survival after death? Only thinking. Why? because it fears ending.

If you spend your time and thinking helping others and forget about yourself then you will be free of death.
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