Dependent Origination

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by mikenz66 »

Element wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:The buddha does talk about descent in to the womb an such like in the Mahanidana sutta when talking about the DO.
My opinion is the Mahanidana sutta is one sutta distinct from scores of others on the subject. Plus it is in the Digha Nikaya, which appears to be precursor to the Mahayana Suttas and thus doubtful if spoken by the Buddha. If so, it was spoken to Ananda, who was unenlightened and not ready for stream entry.
Element
If that is your opinion, there's always MN9, Sammaditthi Sutta, and presumably some others...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
Metta
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Ceisiwr »

Isnt the "[in the womb] but something that has been added?

As for the bit that says acquisition of the aggregates, i see this as the new sense of "I" takes these up.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by mikenz66 »

Of course, you can interpret it as you wish. However you're ignoring the "spheres of various beings" and so on.

It doesn't matter to me what you and Element believe. However, it is important for readers to understand that your interpretations disagree with the standard Theravada interpretation, so that they can make up their own mind.

Personally, I try to enter a discussion with this in mind:
MN95 Canki Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.
Metta
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Ceisiwr »

Well i dont discount either interpretation as i can see that it can be interpreted both ways and still be viable and conductive.

I havent set in stone my understanding of D.O. as i am in no doubt that i still have much unknowing and so i am not appreciating it fully.I started this thread so that both sides could be voiced so people reading it could look at it from both angles which i feel can only be beneficial in the end.

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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gavesako
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by gavesako »

I can recommend this article by Bhikkhu Bodhi for your consideration:

A Critical Examination of Ñānavīra Thera’s “A Note on Paticcasamuppada”
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/other/bodhi/
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Ceisiwr »

Thanky you gavesako

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Element »

clw_uk wrote:I havent set in stone my understanding of D.O.
Craig

I have set in stone my understanding of D.O. I set it on the meditation cushion many years ago.

To borrow a phrase from Ajahn Buddhadasa about D.O. "it is mere plain science".

Best wishes

Element
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Ceisiwr »

I have only started to appreciate it from buddhadasa interpretation so cant make my mind up on it to quickly. At the moment both interpretations have convincing points and both seem logical. The main point for me is does kamma continue to have an effect past the physical death, once i settle that i think i can settle on how to take D.O.

I feel like developing an Sañjaya Belaṭṭhaputta attitude towards it :rolleye:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Element »

mikenz66 wrote:If that is your opinion, there's always MN9, Sammaditthi Sutta, and presumably some others...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi Mike,

I must say I cannot see the connection with your quote from MN 9 and the matter being discussed, namely consciousness descending into the womb.

You have quoted the link about 'birth' from MN 9 whilst R.Y.B has quoted the link about 'nama-rupa' from the Digha Nikaya.

However, if we do wish to learn something about consciousness from MN 9, it states:
"And what is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, mind-consciousness."
Thus, could you kindly advise me, which of these types of consciousness is the relinking or descending consciousness you are referring to?

Thank you

Element
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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by mikenz66 »

Element wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: I must say I cannot see the connection with your quote from MN 9 and the matter being discussed, namely consciousness descending into the womb.
Then we can continue to agree to differ on our interpretation of the Tipitika... :reading:

Best Wishes and Metta
Mike
Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Element »

clw_uk wrote:I have only started to appreciate it from buddhadasa interpretation so cant make my mind up on it to quickly.
Thanks OK. Each of us must study, investigate, practise and decide for ourself.

Below is a guide for introspection regarding PATICCA-SAMUPPADA, developed by some of Buddhadasa's western monks years ago. For your consideration.

Whilst it is not vipassana level of introspection, it is applicable to everyday life.
HEY! WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

(some guide questions for introspection)

An easy way to begin studying Paticca-samuppada is to reflect on some on-going issue or problem in your life. It need not be a big deal; any petty old problem will do for a start. It's best to focus on particular instances or situations in which the "problem" has manifested. (The following guide questions are derived from the above "short form" teaching on paticca-samuppada.)

What's the problem? What about it really bugs me, hurts me or feels most burdensome?

How do I relate to it emotionally (fear, resentment, anger, boredom, lust, greed, worry, guilt, pride, …)?

Who do you think you are in this situation ("I am this," "I am not that")? Who's got the problem? What are the particular identities, personas, masks, self-images, roles involved in this problem?

What is mind/thought stuck on & trying to control? To what idea or memory or experience does it keep coming back? What is it hanging on to? How?

What does it want?

Which experiences & events connected with the "problem" feel negative (unpleasant, uncomfortable, painful) and which feel positive (pleasant, nice, convenient, happy) and which are somewhere in between?

Which experiences & events of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, remembering, imagining, and thinking trigger these cycles (the above aspects of the problem)?

These questions are intended to aid introspection and reflection. They may have multiple answers and varying layers of subtlety. They may require time and further observation -- not just thinking -- to go deeper. They may be investigated repeatedly. Go into specifics and real-life detail. Notice how things interdependently co-originate and proliferate. Have fun!
I would like to include an additional question, to cover the link of ignorance that is not included above.
"What view is affecting my mind that is not in accordance to reality or not in accordance with the Dhamma?".
With metta,

Element
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

gavesako wrote:I can recommend this article by Bhikkhu Bodhi for your consideration:

A Critical Examination of Ñānavīra Thera’s “A Note on Paticcasamuppada”
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/other/bodhi/

Thanks much Bhante!

From Bhante Bodhi's Introduction:
My purpose in writing this examination is to vindicate the traditional three-life interpretation against Ven. Nanavira's critique of it. I propose to show that the approach which he considers to be "more satisfactory" not only cannot be justified by reference to the discourses of the Buddha, but is in fact flatly contradicted by those discourses. I also intend to establish that, contrary to Ven. Nanavira's allegations, the three-life interpretation, though not explicitly stated in such terms, is fully in accord with the Buddha's teachings. In my view, this interpretation, far from deviating from the Suttas, simply makes explicit the Buddha's intention in expounding dependent arising.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Element »

Will wrote:...though not explicitly stated in such terms...
Everyday I have been chanting: "Buddha fully enlightened, Blessed One perfect teacher & expounder of Dhamma...blah, blah, blah"...

Now it appears this is untrue. :o :weep:
meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by meindzai »

Element wrote:
Will wrote:...though not explicitly stated in such terms...
Everyday I have been chanting: "Buddha fully enlightened, Blessed One perfect teacher & expounder of Dhamma...blah, blah, blah"...

Now it appears this is untrue. :o :weep:
The teaching was just as good then as it is now, but the students are different. He didn't have to be explicit becuase most of his audience was bright enough to figure it out on their own.

-M
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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by mikenz66 »

Dear Venerable,
gavesako wrote:I can recommend this article by Bhikkhu Bodhi for your consideration:

A Critical Examination of Ñānavīra Thera’s “A Note on Paticcasamuppada”
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/other/bodhi/
Thank you for the link. It sums up many of the points of contention that have arisen on this thread very well.

Metta
Mike
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