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First Noble Truth - dukkha? - Dhamma Wheel

First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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acinteyyo
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First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:28 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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appicchato
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby appicchato » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:16 am


Sanghamitta
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:35 am

The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:23 am

Last edited by acinteyyo on Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:26 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Jechbi
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Jechbi » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:08 pm

Dukkha is one of those words that has lots of different shades of meaning in different contexts. That's why you see it used so often without an English translation.

In my personal opinion, the answer to your question is that these things are dukkha because of ignorance. Others may have better answers.

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Zack
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Zack » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:55 pm

I am of nature to decay, I have not gone beyond decay.
I am of the nature to be diseased, I have not gone beyond disease.
I am of the nature to die, I have not done beyond death.
All that is mine, dear and delightful, will change and vanish.
I am the owner of my kamma, heir to my kamma, born of my kamma, related to
my kamma, abide supported by my kamma. Whatever kamma I shall do,
whether good or evil, of that I shall be the heir.
Thus we should frequently recollect.
- Upajjhatthana Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya v.57

vinasp
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:12 pm

Hi everyone,

Not getting what one wants is stressful. Why ? Because when you want something , you are saying "I will not be happy until I get it". You are making yourself unhappy now, so that you can be happy when you get what you want. But what if you do not get it ? Then you have just made yourself unhappy for no good reason. The more desires you have, the more unhappy you will be.
Its brain chemistry, its a motivational mechanism which has evolved, and has survival value. Our present culture makes things worse. Prozac anyone ? This is way beyond anything in the five nikaya's. A modern way of saying it perhaps ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:01 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

alan
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby alan » Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:54 am

Acinteyyo, I've often thought that the difference between a religious Buddhist--one who gladly does the work of study/contemplation/meditation, as opposed to just having Buddhism as a preferred ideology, to be pulled out from time to time when desired or needed, is just this very question of understanding dukkha. So how to go about that? Well,first look at the way you put the question. Maybe it is best to focus not on the list, but on the conclusion--the five clinging/aggregates themselves are dukkha.
Why? Well we know they are impermanent, inconstant, subject to change. We know they are not ours, beyond our control, never to be depended on--and yet we think and act as if this is not applicable to us!
Buddha tells us there is no lasting happiness to be found here, in these aggregates of clinging, and points to a way out.
Also keep in mind here he was coming from a state of bliss, of unrestricted awareness, beyond all viewpoints, released. How to teach a way to get there? First of all, it would make sense to let your students know that although they may think they are happy and doing well, they are in fact suffering and deluded. Comprehending this truth is the point of entry to the path. Welcome!

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Ben
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Ben » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:29 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

alan
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby alan » Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:45 am

Hi Ben.
If you are asking my opinion about how to teach that class, I would say it is much better not to do it for now. Better to do the hard work of comprehending dukkha, making that realization part of your life, and then following and living the path. When you get to the point where you can teach from your life, and have the presence that your students will respect, go ahead.

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Ben
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Ben » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:11 am

No Alan.
I am not asking your opinion. And yes, I am confident in my ability to teach that class and have the respect of the students.
The point is, I think its counter-productive to tell people they're deluded and that's why they suffer. There's a better way to get people to accept a potentially uncomfortable reality rather than saying something which could be interpreted as a value judgement and thus dismissed.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

alan
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Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby alan » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:37 am

What is that better way?

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pink_trike
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:49 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

alan
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby alan » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:04 am

When I talked about "your students" it was in reference to the Buddha, after his enlightenment. How would he, from this state of bliss, teach people who were in a normal state, a state of dukkha?
What would be his priorities? How would he motivate people?

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BlackBird
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:43 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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appicchato
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby appicchato » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:18 am


alan
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby alan » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:34 am

It is a question of how he would teach. That is the whole point of this thread. He taught dukkha first. Why?

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Jechbi
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Jechbi » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:04 am



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