First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alan
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by alan »

When I talked about "your students" it was in reference to the Buddha, after his enlightenment. How would he, from this state of bliss, teach people who were in a normal state, a state of dukkha?
What would be his priorities? How would he motivate people?
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BlackBird
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by BlackBird »

Ben wrote: The point is, I think its counter-productive to tell people they're deluded and that's why they suffer. There's a better way to get people to accept a potentially uncomfortable reality rather than saying something which could be interpreted as a value judgement and thus dismissed.
kind regards

Ben
Hi Ben.

I would have to agree. Going in "all guns blazing" is something many agnostics have an aversion to, even when the truth of suffering is broken to people softly, it's quite likely to be rejected, because most would rather believe that life isn't suffering at all... I'm reminded of how that guy "Cypher" in The Matrix wants to be re-plugged in, because the reality of life is too harsh for him.

I think this is reflected in the Canon also, the Buddha didn't straight out teach the Four Noble Truths to everyone he met, because some people weren't ready to hear it, for example the Kalamas.

I guess it depends whether people are attracted by the carrot or the stick. In my experience - In the West: They tend to resent the stick. So it's all about highlighting the brilliance of that delicious carrot.

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appicchato
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by appicchato »

alan wrote:How would he, from this state of bliss, teach people who were in a normal state, a state of dukkha?
It's not a question of how would he...he did...
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by alan »

It is a question of how he would teach. That is the whole point of this thread. He taught dukkha first. Why?
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Jechbi
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by Jechbi »

Thanks, acinteyyo.
acinteyyo wrote:So why did the Buddha say that these things mentioned in the first noble truths are dukkha?
Perhaps because in the context of this passage, the teaching has to do with contemplation, and specifically (from the translation by Maurice Walshe) --
... a monk abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in respect of the Four Noble Truths. How does he do so?
Followed by instructions to understand mind objects in respect of the Four Noble Truths. Maybe that's why those particular things were mentioned, because they are helpful for this particular contemplation.
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by acinteyyo »

alan wrote:[...] -the five clinging/aggregates themselves are dukkha.
Why? Well we know they are impermanent, inconstant, subject to change. We know they are not ours, beyond our control, never to be depended on--and yet we think and act as if this is not applicable to us!
Buddha tells us there is no lasting happiness to be found here, in these aggregates of clinging, and points to a way out.
Also keep in mind here he was coming from a state of bliss, of unrestricted awareness, beyond all viewpoints, released. How to teach a way to get there? First of all, it would make sense to let your students know that although they may think they are happy and doing well, they are in fact suffering and deluded. Comprehending this truth is the point of entry to the path. Welcome!
Hi alan,
If we would know they are impermanent, inconstant, subject to change, not ours, beyond our control, never to be dependend on - then they wouldn't be dukkha anymore, there wouldn't even be five clinging aggregates, just five aggregates would be all there is. but as you said -" yet we think and act as if this is not applicable to us!" and this misconduct makes them dukkha. The fault is "here I am -and- there is my world". It seems to me that most people know the 4 noble truths including the eight-fold-path quite well plus a lot of sutta knowledge. They know things are dukkha but they don't know why, they don't know that they are the main reason for dukkha, so they think and act as if this is not applicable to themselves. For the puthujjana everything are the five clinging aggregates, and the puthujjana thinks he is one, more or all of the five clinging aggregates. He can see without any problems that these things, of which he doesn't think that he is are dukkha but he constantly ignores the things, of which he thinks he is. Without seeing this misconduct, there will be no progress on the path. I agree with what you said: "Comprehending this truth is the point of entry to the path."
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by acinteyyo »

Jechbi wrote:Thanks, acinteyyo.
acinteyyo wrote:So why did the Buddha say that these things mentioned in the first noble truths are dukkha?
Perhaps because in the context of this passage, the teaching has to do with contemplation, and specifically (from the translation by Maurice Walshe) --
... a monk abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects in respect of the Four Noble Truths. How does he do so?
Followed by instructions to understand mind objects in respect of the Four Noble Truths. Maybe that's why those particular things were mentioned, because they are helpful for this particular contemplation.
Hi Jechbi,
your right in this case. I may have not expressed myself clear enough. I'm not interessted in those particular things. Birth, death... and so on they're just expressions. Sabbe sankhara dukkha. All conditioned things are dukkha. The five clinging aggregates are sankhara. I want to make clear why are all sankhara dukkha or why are the five clinging aggregates dukkha? The five clinging aggregates is a expression for everything existing for the puthujjana. He doesn't know anything else. The puthujjana believes in a self. He thinks he is one, more or all of the five clinging aggregates. And there is the main misconduct. He can without problems see impermanence, not-self and dukkha in all the things, of which he doesn't think that he is those things. But he constantly ignores the things, of which he thinks that he is those things. So he starts thinking he has understood, why the things are dukkha, but he has not. He is still not able to see that he himself is the problem. His belief in a self. In fact because of this misconduct he is still a puthujjana.
I hope in the things I wrote is something which may be helpful for someone.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by pink_trike »

alan wrote:It is a question of how he would teach. That is the whole point of this thread. He taught dukkha first. Why?
Perhaps because humans spend nearly every waking moment of their lives unconsciously reacting unskillfully to the three kinds of dukkha which is like persistently scratching a sore.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by acinteyyo »

alan wrote:It is a question of how he would teach. That is the whole point of this thread. He taught dukkha first. Why?
oh... seems that I missed this quote. That is not the whole point of this thread! The question is not "why taught the Buddha dukkha first?" the question is why are the five clinging-aggregates dukkha? or why are those things dukkha, which were well-defined as dukkha by the Buddha?
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Jechbi
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by Jechbi »

acinteyyo wrote:Hi Jechbi,
your right in this case. I may have not expressed myself clear enough. I'm not interessted in those particular things. Birth, death... and so on they're just expressions. Sabbe sankhara dukkha. All conditioned things are dukkha. The five clinging aggregates are sankhara. I want to make clear why are all sankhara dukkha or why are the five clinging aggregates dukkha? The five clinging aggregates is a expression for everything existing for the puthujjana. He doesn't know anything else. The puthujjana believes in a self. He thinks he is one, more or all of the five clinging aggregates. And there is the main misconduct. He can without problems see impermanence, not-self and dukkha in all the things, of which he doesn't think that he is those things. But he constantly ignores the things, of which he thinks that he is those things. So he starts thinking he has understood, why the things are dukkha, but he has not. He is still not able to see that he himself is the problem. His belief in a self. In fact because of this misconduct he is still a puthujjana.
I hope in the things I wrote is something which may be helpful for someone.
best wishes, acinteyyo
In that case I think you're making a statement, not asking a question.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by acinteyyo »

Jechbi wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:Hi Jechbi,
your right in this case. I may have not expressed myself clear enough. I'm not interessted in [...]
In that case I think you're making a statement, not asking a question.
sure, you're right again. I wanted to clarify what I think in relation to the question. 'cause it seems to me that my question is not understood properly. The answers are an indication for my assumption.
It's like as I would ask why is a car a car? And someone responds because of the tires. But that's not right. The tires are a part of a thing which is called "car" and which has the meaning of car. Yes tires constitute a car in some way. But tires aren't the reason for that thing to be a car. A bike isn't a car although both things have tires. Maybe the wrong interpretation of the question results from the fact that the responder takes for granted that a car is a car and does not understand that the questioner puts exactly this into question. My question is not as simple meant as it maybe sounds.
This is not a very good simile but I hope you can imagine what I want to say.
And making a statement doesn't replace the question, does it?
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by Jechbi »

acinteyyo wrote:And making a statement doesn't replace the question, does it?
I'll take the 5th.
:smile:
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by mikenz66 »

alan wrote:It is a question of how he would teach. That is the whole point of this thread. He taught dukkha first. Why?
He taught Dukkha first to a group of like-minded ascetics for whom that teaching was appropriate.

He didn't teach dukkha so bluntly to uncommitted lay people, which is Ben's audience...

Mike
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adosa
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by adosa »

Hi Acinteyyo.

Sorry but you lost me here. Pardon my ignorance. I have to agree with the Venerable Appicchato that it is clinging or craving (or aversion) that makes these things dukkha. They are just events. They are the nature of the universe but we want a different outcome, not because of misconduct, but because that is the way we are wired. To me misconduct indicates something we could control with effort. However, we can't control craving. Not yet at least. I do believe it is an evolutionary survival thing. But I digress.

So these things are dukkha. Not in and of themselves but because of clinging, craving and adversion. Until the switch is flipped and we see reality all the way to our core, beyond our intellect, they will continue to be dukkha. They are not dukkha to an Arahant because Arahants no longer have the roots of craving, aversion, and delusion.

That's my view but somehow I think I missed the mark of your question as it has been answered this way before. So please, what is your answer? It seems like you have one but have yet to present it. I'd like to know because now I have more dukkha trying to crack this riddle. :shrug:


adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Post by acinteyyo »

adosa wrote:Hi Acinteyyo.

Sorry but you lost me here. Pardon my ignorance. I have to agree with the Venerable Appicchato that it is clinging or craving (or aversion) that makes these things dukkha. They are just events. They are the nature of the universe but we want a different outcome, not because of misconduct, but because that is the way we are wired. To me misconduct indicates something we could control with effort. However, we can't control craving. Not yet at least. I do believe it is an evolutionary survival thing. But I digress.

So these things are dukkha. Not in and of themselves but because of clinging, craving and adversion. Until the switch is flipped and we see reality all the way to our core, beyond our intellect, they will continue to be dukkha. They are not dukkha to an Arahant because Arahants no longer have the roots of craving, aversion, and delusion.

That's my view but somehow I think I missed the mark of your question as it has been answered this way before. So please, what is your answer? It seems like you have one but have yet to present it. I'd like to know because now I have more dukkha trying to crack this riddle. :shrug:
adosa
Hi adosa,
I try to make it more clear.
DN22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta wrote: "Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
Here the Buddha told us what is dukkha. Birth, aging, death and so on... in short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha. Or here:
Dhammapada (277-279) wrote:Sabbe sankhárá aniccá; All determinations are impermanent;
sabbe sankhárá dukkhá; All determinations are suffering (unpleasurable, stressful);
sabbe dhammá anattá. All things are not-self.
The Buddha told us again what is dukkha.
Somewhere else (I can't remember at the moment where exactly) the Buddha told us:
"Whatever counts as impermanent is suffering and whatever counts as suffering is not-self."
This tells us again what is dukkha, or what has to be seen as dukkha.
This for example tells us not that something is dukkha because of its impermanance. It only tells us that something which is impermanant is dukkha, too. Nothing more, and not why it is dukkha.

What I'm asking for is now why are those things dukkha?

I have an idea, but I think I'm unable to explain it so that someone will understand. It's difficult enough for me to explain it in german and even more for me in english. Furthermore:
DN22 Maha-satipatthana Sutta wrote:"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.
The second noble truths tells us how or why dukkha arises or rather from what dukkha originates. In other words how or why those things mentioned above arise or from what they originate. But in my eyes the second noble truth does not tell us why those things mentioned above are dukkha.
I may missed a sutta where the Buddha said something like this: "because of this, those things are dukkha (or have to be seen as dukkha)". Does someone know such a statement?
In my eyes the Buddha did not say: "the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha because of craving". As I understand it, the Buddha said: "from craving the five clinging-aggregates originate and the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."
No explanation again, why the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha.

I'm of the opinion that to end dukkha it is essential to understand dukkha. Not only to know that the Buddha said this or that is dukkha, but to have fully understood what is dukkha and why is it dukkha. How can one understand the other three noble truths when one still doesn't understand the first one?! This is my intention.
Take a look in my signature. This is what the Buddha said about his teachings.
Ask as much as you want, if it's still not clear for you.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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