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First Noble Truth - dukkha? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:41 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:18 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:33 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:39 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Jechbi
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Jechbi » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:55 pm


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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:17 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Jechbi
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Jechbi » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:49 pm


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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:30 am


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adosa
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby adosa » Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:21 pm

Hi Acinteyyo.

Sorry but you lost me here. Pardon my ignorance. I have to agree with the Venerable Appicchato that it is clinging or craving (or aversion) that makes these things dukkha. They are just events. They are the nature of the universe but we want a different outcome, not because of misconduct, but because that is the way we are wired. To me misconduct indicates something we could control with effort. However, we can't control craving. Not yet at least. I do believe it is an evolutionary survival thing. But I digress.

So these things are dukkha. Not in and of themselves but because of clinging, craving and adversion. Until the switch is flipped and we see reality all the way to our core, beyond our intellect, they will continue to be dukkha. They are not dukkha to an Arahant because Arahants no longer have the roots of craving, aversion, and delusion.

That's my view but somehow I think I missed the mark of your question as it has been answered this way before. So please, what is your answer? It seems like you have one but have yet to present it. I'd like to know because now I have more dukkha trying to crack this riddle. :shrug:


adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:23 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Jechbi
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Jechbi » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:59 pm


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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:32 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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fivebells
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby fivebells » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:54 pm

Before you can reason clearly about why these things might be called dukkha, don't you have to have a precise definition of what dukkha is?

I always thought that this list was the definition of dukkha.

For what it's worth, my teacher often translates dukkha as "struggle." It's pretty clear that the standard way to relate to all of those items is to struggle.

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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:08 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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fivebells
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby fivebells » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:15 pm

Sorry, not sure what your point is with that.

rowyourboat
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:34 pm

Acinteyyo

I feel on one level you are confusing the problem with the solution -'why is old age suffering (problem) when the the arahanth doesn't suffer from it (solution)?'. It is like asking why an infected wound is a problem when the wound healed after antibiotics isn't.

To get to the solution the problem must be fully accepted, otherwise the problem will always persist. You cannot have one or the other.

On another level even the arahanth understands the true nature of conditioned phenomena is unsatisfactory. He goes beyond that as well at the point of death (fully nibbana- parinibbana). He experiences unpleasant sensation while alive and has to put up with an impermanant aging body, which he does with equanimity.

The sentient mind doesn't find a close perception of impermanence a satisfactory thing- arahanth or not. There is a common misconception that it is craving that makes it suffering- it certainly causes mental suffering- but there is inherant unsatisfactoriness as a quality of phenomena. If you do vipassana well you will come to know this and these doubts will vanish.

with metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

jhana.achariya

Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby jhana.achariya » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:53 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:23 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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acinteyyo
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:32 pm

Hi rowyourboat,
do you think it's enought for proper practice to just know that there is an inherent unsatisfactoriness as a quality of phenomena, even if one doesn't know why?

I think, when one doesn't know why a particular thing is a particular thing then one can't know which thing is the particular thing. Thus I think, that when one doesn't know why there is an inherent unsatisfactoriness as a quality of phenomena, one can't see the inherent unsatisfactory quality of phenomena. To say there is an unsatisfactory quality in all phenomena doesn't make it perceptible, it's such an abstract statement that it basically doesn't contain any testable conclusion. Also to say there is an inherent unsatisfactoriness as a quality of phenomena, for example just because the Buddha said it, doesn't make it perceptible either, not to mention that this even wouldn't be real knowledge. But, imho, if one really sees this unsatisfactory quality in all phenomena, then one also knows why it is there.

It's not a very good comparison but anyway I try it , let's imagine one has a small pool. One day he notices that the small pool froze up. But he doesn't know why the pool froze up. How can he know what have to be done to end freezing in this case?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Jechbi
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Re: First Noble Truth - dukkha?

Postby Jechbi » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:54 pm



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