A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
vinasp
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

I think that Manapa said ( on another thread ) that he was about to go away for a week or two. So perhaps we should not expect a response from him.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Here is the alternative translation by John D. Ireland complete with notes.

44 The Nibbana-Element

This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:
"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left. What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left?

Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed (25), the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being and is completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left (26).

Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left?
Here a bhikkhu is an arahant .......completely released by final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left (27). These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements.

Verses ommitted.

Notes:

25. The taints (aasava) are sensual desire, desire for being, and ignorance. See Sutta 56. "one in whom the taints are destroyed" (khinaasava) is another name for an arahant.

26. The attainment of arahantship consists in the extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbaana) - attachment, hate and delusion - and while the arahant continues to live out his life, his freedom from defilements is called " the Nibbana-element with residue left" ( sa-upaadisesa-nibbaanadhaatu). The "residue" is the five aggregates - the mind and body and the senses - that continue to function.

27. As there is no craving and clinging ( "delight" ), at the arahant's death, when the body perishes there is nothing to be projected into a future birth. Thus there takes place the final extinction of the aggregates
( khandha-parinibbaana ), which is "the Nibbana-element with no residue left"
( anupaadisesa-nibbaanadhaatu ).

The Itivuttaka. The Buddha's Sayings. John D. Ireland. 1991 Buddhist Publication Society. Kandy, Sri Lanka.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

I think that Manapa said ( on another thread ) that he was about to go away for a week or two. So perhaps we should not expect a response from him.

Best wishes, Vincent.
Hi Vinasp,
this is very true, but it will be 6 weeks without a propper connection and three of these weeks without any as I will be in a monastery in UK (Amaravati), plus I am focusing more on my practice during the 6 weeks if you or anyone have a facebook page and are interested in how things are going I am on there with the user name Manapa Bhojanadhikari and have it set up to provide updates through my blog page, as that is where I have a fare few friends online so it keeps everyone in the loop.
to answer your previous questions the quote was provided in responce to your responce to everyone imediately above it.
as for the understandings their are four kinds, the worldlings which is not right view, the right view, the noble ones (each and every stage on the path) which is not right view, and the right view or understanding, as one progresses along the path, view will be erroded away by understanding (mini-realisations as opposed to the realisation which brings Nibbana these pave the way to making nibbana "closer" or in another way attainable) some of what you say are lower understandings arent the Buddhist "Lower understandings" or view to adopt, rebirth is a prime example of this, the buddhist lower view isn't the same as the non-buddhist understanding but can share some similarities, then the higher understanding is the 'mechanics' of rebirth keeping in mind the no-self, and kamma understandings, which wouldn't be right Gnosis of it fully until the understanding has been fully understood in relation to the other mini-understandings, higher and lower understandings and views within Buddhism isn't the same as Higher and lower understandings and views comparing Buddhist views & understandings to other Views & Understandings.

this will probably be the last post on this thread, although I will possibly be able to nip on from time to time, but I am essentially off the grid of the WWW at the moment and will not be able to respond to anything either at all, or fully if I do respond so any communication will be as and when I have something to say and not nexesarilly as posts initially come to my attention, more a cut and paste sort it off line then post later.
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by appicchato »

Manapa wrote:...the noble ones (each and every stage on the path) which is not right view...
So, arahants don't have right view? (if this is what you are inferring)...reference?...
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Bhante,
No I wasn't trying to infer that, just that those not yet fully enlightened don't have complete right view yet, even though they are noble ones and have right view to a certain extent depending on how far allong the path they are!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Raga Mala
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Raga Mala »

vinasp wrote: On point 2. What I mean is that arahant is used to refer to those who have completed the noble eightfold path, it is also used for those who are fully enlightened ( tathagata ). It is also used for those on the higher tenfold path which leads to full enlightenment. So this conceals the two highest stages of enlightenment by making them look like only one.
I struggle to understand what you mean by "completed". SN 56.11 says that the Noble 8FP is to be "developed"--I am not familiar with a usage of that Path being "completed."

I also am not generally acquainted with any passages in the Canon that refer to anyone besides the Buddha (and, collectively, past sammasmbuddhas) as "tathagata."

If you are a suggesting a distinction in "level of enlightenment" between an Arahant and a Buddha/Tathagata/Sammasambuddha, then your ideas are as old as Nagarjuna, and you can easily refer to his numerous proofs for why the Mahayana interpretation is in accordance with the oldest teachings (or why such an accordance is irrelevant).

Is your only evidence for the "two levels of enlightenment" the 8FP v 10FP distinction? Where else in the Canon do you find evidence that there is an Awakening higher than that of the Arahant? Can you cite the passage?
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi Raga Mala,

There are many passages which use the term "tathagata" for someone other than the Buddha. Here is one :
" Bhikkhus, when the gods with Indra, with Brahma and with Pajapati seek a bhikkhu who is thus liberated in mind, they do not find [ anything of which they could say ] : " The consciousness of one thus gone is supported by this". Why is that ? One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now".
Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha. Bhikkhu Bodhi. MN 22. 36 page 233.

In note 266 bhikkhu Bodhi explains that "one thus gone" is tathagata in Pali. You might enjoy comparing different translations of this passage.
On what happens after the noble eightfold path is completed, the following passage is interesting :
" Half a month after being ordained venerable Vacchagotta went to the Lord, saluted (him), and sat down at one side. Said Vacchagotta :
" Bhante, I have attained what may be attained through a trainee's knowledge and learning. Let the Lord teach me dhamma beyond (this)".
" Well then, Vaccha , cultivate two further states, calm and insight. These two states will engender the comprehension of many conditions".
This is from the David W. Evans translation : Discourses of Gotama Buddha Middle Collection. Janus Publishing Company. London. 1992. page 213.

The word translated "trainee" is sekha , which is someone on the noble eightfold path, someone still developing the path factors. Once the path factors are fully developed one is no longer a sekha , the noble eightfold path is completed. What comes next is the higher stage of the asekha , about which
they do not say much.

Perhaps I should use the phrase "true path to enlightenment", because the path is described in about six different ways. The noble eightfold path is only one of these six , and is the most complicated description. Here is a much simpler one :
"Again, a bhikkhu dwells both in public and in private possessing in common with his companions in the holy life that view that is noble and emancipating, and leads one who practises in accordance with it to the complete destruction of suffering". MN 48. 6 from Bhikkhu Bodhi page 421.

On the higher path and two stages of enlightenment : The important thing which makes this clear is ones understanding of the five aggregates. Anyone who thinks that they are "actual body and mind" will not see the higher path, no matter how many passages I quote.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,
vinasp wrote: On what happens after the noble eightfold path is completed, the following passage is interesting :
" Half a month after being ordained venerable Vacchagotta went to the Lord, saluted (him), and sat down at one side. Said Vacchagotta :
" Bhante, I have attained what may be attained through a trainee's knowledge and learning. Let the Lord teach me dhamma beyond (this)".
" Well then, Vaccha , cultivate two further states, calm and insight. These two states will engender the comprehension of many conditions".
This is from the David W. Evans translation : Discourses of Gotama Buddha Middle Collection. Janus Publishing Company. London. 1992. page 213.

The word translated "trainee" is sekha , which is someone on the noble eightfold path, someone still developing the path factors. Once the path factors are fully developed one is no longer a sekha , the noble eightfold path is completed. What comes next is the higher stage of the asekha , about which
they do not say much.
Of course the standard interpretation is that a sekha is any aryiha apart from an arahant. I take that passage to mean that Ven Vacchagotta was a non-returner, and was asking for some teaching for the final stage, arahant.

In the Commentarial terminology:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#sekha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sekha: a 'noble learner', a disciple in higher training, i.e. one who pursues the 3 kinds of training sikkhā, is one of those 7 kinds of Noble Disciples who have reached one of the 4 supra-mundane paths or the 3 lower fruitions see: ariya-puggala while the one possessed of the 4th fruition, or Arahatta-phala, is called 'one beyond training' asekha lit. 'no more learner'. The worldling puthujjana is called 'neither a noble learner, nor perfected in learning' n'eva-sekha-nāsekha Cf. Pug. 23-25.
By the way, can you give a reference to which Sutta you are quoting above? Is it from the MN, or somewhere else?

Mike
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

OK, it's all sorted out here: http://aimwell.org/DPPN/vacchagotta.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's MN73

I was a little worried about the translation given above, which sounds like Vacchagotta has no calm or insight. Here's an alternative translation:
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ta-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Two weeks after venerable Vacchagotta receivd the higher ordination, he approached the Blessed One, worshipped, sat on a side and said to the Blessed One. `Venerable sir, I have gained the knowledge of a trainer. May the Blessed One instruct me further,' `Then Vaccha, you should develop two things further. Develop calm and insight. Vaccha, when calm and insight is developed, it conduces to experiencing the various elements.
Here it says "develop two things further".

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates it as "develop further two things...".
And in the footnote 727 quotes the Commentary as saying that the Buddha could see that Vacchagotta had the capability of developing the six direct knowledges, so taught him serenity for the five mundane direct knowledges and insight for reaching arahantship.

MIke
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Here is my classification of persons and non-persons.

1. Siddhattha Gotama , Samma-sambodhi , tathagata , arahant.
2. Pacceka-buddha , Samma-sambodhi , tathagata , arahant.
3. Samma-sambodhi, tathagata , [ ariya-savaka ?], arahant.
4. Asekha , Non-returner , ariya-savaka , arahant.
5. Sekha , Stream-winner , ariya-savaka.
6. Puthujjana.

1. Siddhattha Gotama the historical Buddha became fully enlightened by himself, without any teachings , he then created teachings and taught for about 40 years. His degree of enlightenment is samma-sambodhi or full enlightenment , tathagata is a descriptive term meaning thus gone . Arahant means worthy one.
2. The Pacceka-buddha has become fully enlightened by himself , without any teachings. He does not teach.
3. Samma-sambodhi, here it means the full enlightenment of the noble-disciple ( ariya-savaka ) who relies on the teachings of Siddhattha Gotama.
4. Asekha , someone on the "higher path". This is the "real" non-returner.
5. Sekha , this is someone on the noble eightfold path. It is the same as a stream-winner. He is also a noble-disciple ( ariya-savaka ).
6. Puthujjana , ordinary-man , ignorant , on the wrong eightfold path.

Numbers 1, 2 and 3 are non-persons, numbers 4, 5 and 6 are persons, number 4 is a selfless person.

This may be a good time to look at MN 1. the Mulapariyaya Sutta. It speaks first of the puthujjana who sees things in terms of self. Then it talks about the learner ( sekha ) saying "let him not" see things in terms of self. Then it considers the arahant saying "he does not" see things in terms of self, adding that "it has been fully understood by him". Finally, it speaks of a tathagata saying that "he does not" see things in terms of self, and adding that "it has been fully understood to the end by a tathagata". These four states are the same as 6, 5, 4 and 3 in my classification.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Individual »

vinasp wrote: I have been studying the five nikaya's for about twenty years now. I have

made major discoveries which will shock many people. I have an alternative

interpretation of the teachings. This could be the most significant

breakthrough in the last hundred years.
OMG. It's the reincarnation of Jesus!!!
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

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Individual wrote:
vinasp wrote: I have been studying the five nikaya's for about twenty years now. I have

made major discoveries which will shock many people. I have an alternative

interpretation of the teachings. This could be the most significant

breakthrough in the last hundred years.
OMG. It's the reincarnation of Jesus!!!
I think we have, in this thread, moved on.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Here are a few more observations on the term "tathagata" and the ways in which it is used, before we move on to other topics. I do not think that we should spend much time on it as there is already a thread where Tiltbillings and others discuss the meanings of "tathagata", see :

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... gata#p1871" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I first learnt of this from Bhikkhu Nanananda in his interesting book: Concept and Reality, in early Buddhist thought. Buddhist Publication Society. Kandy, Sri Lanka. 1986. This is a quotation from page 111 :

"The term "Tathagata" in its wider sense of the Perfect Man (uttamapuriso, paramapuriso, paramapattipatto, S.N. IV 399) is applicable to the Buddha as well as to the emancipated monk (vimuttacitto bhikkhu, M. N. I. 140, 486)".

Nanananda, a former lecturer in Pali at the University of Sri Lanka, had the advantage of reading the texts in the original Pali, while I had been reading English translations with their constant repetition of "The Tathagata", which it could be just as correct to translate, in many places, as "a tathagata".

The old PTS dictionary says, in its entry for "tathagata" page 296 :
" ...The context shows that the word is an epithet of an arahant ..."

Here are extracts from two interesting suttas :

" ... It is because he has fully awakened to these Four Noble Truths as they really are that the Tathagata is called the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. ..."

Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 1854.
Samyutta Nikaya. Part V Mahavagga. Chapter XII The Truths. III 23 (3) Arahants.

The next Sutta includes :

"At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones, in the past fully awakened to things as they really are, all fully awakened to the Four Noble Truths as they really are [434]. Whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones, in the future will fully awaken to things as they really are, all will fully awaken to the Four Noble Truths as they really are. Whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones, at present have fully awakened to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to the Four Noble Truths as they really are". III 24 (4).

Lets try translating these passages in a slightly different way :

"...It is because he has fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are that a tathagata is called an arahant, a perfectly enlightened one ..."

"... Whatever arahants, perfectly enlightened ones, at present have fully awakened to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to the four noble truths as they really are ..."

If you accept that there is more than one tathagata (at present) then the second passage is talking about tathagata's.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

This is about the distinction between temporary and non-temporary liberation.
First, a passage in MN 122 translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi :

"Indeed, Ananda, it is not possible that a bhikkhu who delights in company, takes delight in company, and devotes himself to delight in company, who delights in society, takes delight in society, and rejoices in society, will ever enter upon and abide in either the deliverance of mind that is temporary and delectable or in [the deliverance of mind] that is perpetual and unshakeable
(note 1150). But it can be expected that when a bhikkhu lives alone, withdrawn from society, he will enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind that is temporary and delectable or in [the deliverance of mind] that is perpetual and unshakeable". MN 122.4 Middle Length Discourses, page 972.

Note 1150 "The former is deliverance through the jhanas and the immaterial attainments, the latter deliverance through the supramundane paths and fruits. See also MN 29.6 and note 348."

And here is a passage in MN 29 from Bhikkhu Bodhi :

"Here, bhikkhus, some clansman goes forth out of faith from the home life into homelessness, considering : "I am a victim of birth, ageing, and death, of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair ; I am a victim of suffering, a prey to suffering. Surely an end to this whole mass of suffering can be known". When he has gone forth thus, he acquires gain, honour, and renown. He is not pleased with that gain, honour, and renown, and his intention is not fulfilled ... When he is diligent, he achieves the attainment of virtue. He is pleased with that attainment of virtue, but his intention is not fulfilled ... When he is diligent, he achieves the attainment of concentration. He is pleased with that attainment of concentration, but his intention is not fulfilled ... When he is diligent he achieves knowledge and vision. He is pleased with that knowledge and vision, but his intention is not fulfilled. He does not, on acount of it, laud himself and disparage others. He does not become intoxicated with that knowledge and vision ; he does not grow negligent and fall into negligence. Being diligent he attains perpetual liberation. And it is impossible for that bhikkhu to fall away from that perpetual deliverance
(note 348)". [MN 29.6]

Note 348 : "This translation follows BBS and SBJ, which read asamaya-vimokkham in the preceding sentence and asamayavimuttiya in this sentence. The PTS ed., on which both Horner and Nm based their translations, is evidently mistaken in reading samaya in the two compounds and thanam instead of atthanam. MA cites the Patisambhidamagga (ii. 40 ) for a definition of asamayavimokkha ( lit., non-temporary or "perpetual" liberation) as the four paths, four fruits, and nibbana, and of samayavimokkha (temporary liberation) as the four jhanas and four formless attainments. See also MN 122.4".

There is a final passage of interest : MN 29.7

"So, this holy life, bhikkhus, does not have gain, honour, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of virtue for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakeable deliverance of mind that is the goal of this holy life, its heartwood , and its end (note 349)".

Note 349 : " Unshakeable deliverance of mind" is the fruit of arahantship (MA). Thus "perpetual liberation" - as including all four paths and fruits - has a wider range of meaning than "unshakeable deliverance of mind", which alone is declared to be the goal of the holy life.

This distinction is well understood by many today. It may have been stated explicitly in the Abhidhamma (I do not know). It seems to be mentioned only twice in the Majjhima Nikaya . I am wondering how well it was understood by Buddhist monks at the time that the Nikaya's were the current teaching. I think that it was made clear in other ways, such as the use of the term "cessation" and the knowledge of the destruction of the asava's. But, there are passages (which can be interpreted as) puthujjana monks declaring themselves to be arahants, how could they be so mistaken about their attainments ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

This is about the wrong eightfold path, a topic which is very important but rarely mentioned. In fact, I do not recall it being discussed in any of the books on Theravada Buddhism which I read.

"Bhikkhus, ignorance is the forerunner in the entry upon unwholesome states, with shamelessness and fearlessness of wrongdoing following along. For an unwise person immersed in ignorance, wrong view springs up. For one of wrong view, wrong intention springs up. For one of wrong intention, wrong speech springs up. For one of wrong speech, wrong action springs up. For one of wrong action, wrong livelihood springs up. For one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort springs up. For one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness springs up. For one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration springs up.
Bhikkhus, true knowledge is the forerunner in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing following along. For a wise person who has arrived at true knowledge, right view springs up. For one of right view, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up."

Bhikkhu Bodhi : Connected Discourses, page 1523.
Samyutta Nikaya, part V, Mahavagga, Chapter I, 45 Maggasamyutta I Ignorance, 1 (1) Ignorance.

This is important because most monks were ignorant puthujjhanas, and were on this wrong eightfold path. Only ariya savakas were on the noble eightfold path. There seems to be a widespread misconception today, that anyone who adopts certain views and engages in certain practices is automatically on the noble eightfold path. This is not true. The wrong path leads nowhere.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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