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A new interpretation of the Pali Canon - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:10 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:15 am

Greetings Vincent, all,

As for the raft and the dhamma to be let go of, I have heard (and agree) that this refers to mental objects. So eventually one needs to let go of wholesome mindstates, let alone the unwholesome ones... thus, it is about transcending the net of kamma, and attachment to delightful mindstates, in order to attain final deliverance.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:46 am

Hi tiltbillings,

On textual sources : Yes you are right, I will back up what I said - as far as I am able to - when each point is discussed. I am not academically trained, nor do I have any debating experience. I am not sure what constitutes a claim, can you direct me to any guidance on this point ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:50 am

Hi Manapa,

What seems like a non-buddhist understanding ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:01 am

Hi mike,

On what the Buddha said to Vacchagotta in MN 72 : Yes you are right. That is the higher understanding expressed clearly. No puthujjana should believe anything else, but they do. Why is the main discourse about the Buddha's life leading up to his death, called the Parinibbana Sutta ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:15 am

Hi retrofuturist,

Then all those translations which say "teachings" are wrong ? Dhamma here should be understood as mental objects. But then it would not fit the parable of the raft, because mental objects are abandoned at all stages of the path, not just at the end.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:19 am


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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:20 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:26 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:33 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

vinasp
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:46 am

Hi Manapa,

Tell me what you think is wrong - one point at a time. Tell me, briefly, why you think it is wrong. Take any point first.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:55 am

Hi mike,

MN 22 starts with a wrong understanding by a monk, that is all. It is not all about his wrong understanding. It moves on to much more important topics. What has the raft got to do with Arittha ?
Also: Are you saying that no Buddhist monk is a puthujjana ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:33 pm

Hi everyone,

Maybe its time to change to another topic ? I am puzzled by the parable of the raft, I do not think that there is anything more that I can say, at present. On the nibbana / parinibbana topic, the only remaining point that I would like to make is this:
If parinibbana is the cessation of the aggregates, then by the higher understanding, and in the case of the Buddha, it happened on the night of his awakening.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:54 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

vinasp
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:44 pm

Hi Manapa,

Thank you for the quotation from the Itivuttaka. I think the alternative translation by John D. Ireland ( also avilable on the same site ), would be less confusing. It has the more common renderings such as nibbana-element and residue left.
Did you post this in connection with my recent remark about parinibbana ?
Do you think it supports my position, or shows it to be wrong ?
These are my two stages of enlightenment, the first is the one which I say should be called non-returner, the second is my tathagata - full enlightenment.
Notice that both are called arahant, as is the Buddha in the first sentence. In his notes, Ireland says that the "residue" is the five aggregates.
For upaadi ; see old PTS dictionary page 149.
In MN 10.46 the Buddha says:
"Bhikkhus, if anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven years, one of two fruits could be expected for him : either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return". Bhikkhu Bodhi; Middle Length Discourses; page 155.
The "trace of clinging left" here, is I think, upaadi-sesa . ( I need to check the Pali on this point ).
But why is it mentioned in the context of the non-returner ?

Best wishes, vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:32 am

Hi everyone,

I think that Manapa said ( on another thread ) that he was about to go away for a week or two. So perhaps we should not expect a response from him.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby vinasp » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:35 am

Hi everyone,

Here is the alternative translation by John D. Ireland complete with notes.

44 The Nibbana-Element

This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:
"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left. What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left?

Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed (25), the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being and is completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left (26).

Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left?
Here a bhikkhu is an arahant .......completely released by final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left (27). These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements.

Verses ommitted.

Notes:

25. The taints (aasava) are sensual desire, desire for being, and ignorance. See Sutta 56. "one in whom the taints are destroyed" (khinaasava) is another name for an arahant.

26. The attainment of arahantship consists in the extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbaana) - attachment, hate and delusion - and while the arahant continues to live out his life, his freedom from defilements is called " the Nibbana-element with residue left" ( sa-upaadisesa-nibbaanadhaatu). The "residue" is the five aggregates - the mind and body and the senses - that continue to function.

27. As there is no craving and clinging ( "delight" ), at the arahant's death, when the body perishes there is nothing to be projected into a future birth. Thus there takes place the final extinction of the aggregates
( khandha-parinibbaana ), which is "the Nibbana-element with no residue left"
( anupaadisesa-nibbaanadhaatu ).

The Itivuttaka. The Buddha's Sayings. John D. Ireland. 1991 Buddhist Publication Society. Kandy, Sri Lanka.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:12 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby appicchato » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:02 pm


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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:18 am

Hi Bhante,
No I wasn't trying to infer that, just that those not yet fully enlightened don't have complete right view yet, even though they are noble ones and have right view to a certain extent depending on how far allong the path they are!


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


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