Islam

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Islam

Postby pink_trike » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:07 am

christopher::: wrote:I think we each have our own style of communication. If you ask questions with metta and a nonjudgmental attitude, i agree that much can be discussed. I tend to be more comfortable asking "what to you think about x?" then "what would you do in situation x or have you ever done x?"...

In my case, i tend to be more challenging of people who share my background then those from different worlds. Thus i will raise thorny issues or ask difficult questions at times of fellow Americans, Buddhists and those of Jewish background. For those who come from different cultures I think a foundation of mutual trust and respect should be laid before difficult issues are raised.

Again, just the approach i'm most comfortable with.

:smile:

Agreed. I mentioned early that these questions can be asked directly if done with clarity and kindness.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
User avatar
pink_trike
 
Posts: 1038
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am

Re: Islam

Postby christopher::: » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:03 am

pink_trike wrote:Agreed. I mentioned early that these questions can be asked directly if done with clarity and kindness.


:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
christopher:::
 
Posts: 1323
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Islam

Postby Aloka » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:18 pm

pink_trike wrote:

That's very neat and tidy, except that the institution of Islam is creating the conditions that have resulted in the murder of 4000 gay men at the hands of the government of Iran over the last 20 years and it appears to be escalating. The institution of Islam has created the conditions that have resulted in the brutal murder of at least 75 gay men in Iraq within the last couple of years. The number of gay men that are imprisoned for many years or life, or that are flogged to within inches of death in countries that are heavily influenced by Islam is huge and uncountable because of a screen of secrecy. What gay people know is that if a hard bright light isn't shown on this behavior it grows until it gets out of hand and starts spreading like wild fire. Next thing ya know we're heading for the gas chambers en masse again. Or the torture chamber again. Or burned at the stake again. You're welcome to turn a blind eye, but imo attempting to justify it with the Dharma is at best, misguided. Yes, someone needs to be directly asking these questions, with clarity and kindness.

We've had this conversation before so I won't go into it deeper. :smile:




Hi Pink_Trike,


I had no knowledge of these atrocities and reading about them truly sickened and upset me.


With many kind wishes,


Dazzle :anjali:
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3673
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Islam

Postby Jechbi » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:09 pm

Hi Pink,

Of course nobody here condones or would attempt to justify murder, or hatred of this (or any) magnitude. But it doesn't make sense to put it all on Islam. Why hold it against a Muslim from Turkey that certain people in Iran do these things? There also are people in Iran -- Muslims -- who oppose their own leadership.

You could likewise blame "the institution of Persian culture" for this type of thing, and that would also be off the mark.

I don't believe anyone would want to turn a blind eye to this kind of thing. But asking these kinds of questions of any random Muslim we happen to befriend is kind of like asking any random blond-haired person what they think of massacring Jews. You don't want to paint everyone with the same brush, even if they happen to be Muslim.

Apologies if I'm misreading you. With respect.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Jechbi
 
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am

Re: Islam

Postby clw_uk » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:50 pm

Of course nobody here condones or would attempt to justify murder, or hatred of this (or any) magnitude. But it doesn't make sense to put it all on Islam. Why hold it against a Muslim from Turkey that certain people in Iran do these things? There also are people in Iran -- Muslims -- who oppose their own leadership.


It plays a big part, if you have a text in the Koran or Old testament that states homosexuals should be killed and persecuted and you have faith i.e. non-thinking, then it isnt a small leap into thinking its justified by God to do these things, and if you think the supreme ruler of the universe thinks its ok then you going to be less likely to have any problems with it

You could likewise blame "the institution of Persian culture" for this type of thing, and that would also be off the mark.


Accept the "instituiton of persian culture" doesnt claim to be a revelation from a super being, doesnt demand faith and obedience to it.

I don't believe anyone would want to turn a blind eye to this kind of thing. But asking these kinds of questions of any random Muslim we happen to befriend is kind of like asking any random blond-haired person what they think of massacring Jews. You don't want to paint everyone with the same brush, even if they happen to be Muslim.


I dont think anyone is suggesting that you ask random people but it is possible to ask these questions in general conversation, cant see why asking what someones opinion on human rights is would be seen as being "offensive"


TBH the idea that these religions are always hijacked by some despot who"uses" the religion to do bad things never seems that believable. You have violent and oppressive lines/theology + promotion of belief for beliefs sake + concepts of Hell + prejudice and injustice. Its not really hard to see what the problem at the core of nearly every religious war, persecution and general affront to human decency was, the faith itself


I mean lets take homosexuality again. If someone says "Its my faith that homosexuals should be killed" and they can back it with the "holy text" of Gods word/message and can even back it with history, on what account can you say they are mistaken?

metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Islam

Postby pink_trike » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:10 pm

Jechbi wrote:Hi Pink,

Of course nobody here condones or would attempt to justify murder, or hatred of this (or any) magnitude. But it doesn't make sense to put it all on Islam. Why hold it against a Muslim from Turkey that certain people in Iran do these things? There also are people in Iran -- Muslims -- who oppose their own leadership.

You could likewise blame "the institution of Persian culture" for this type of thing, and that would also be off the mark.

I don't believe anyone would want to turn a blind eye to this kind of thing. But asking these kinds of questions of any random Muslim we happen to befriend is kind of like asking any random blond-haired person what they think of massacring Jews. You don't want to paint everyone with the same brush, even if they happen to be Muslim.

Apologies if I'm misreading you. With respect.

Hi Jechbi,

Not blame but looking directly at cause and effect. The institution of Islam is directly responsible for the creation of this violent cause and effect situation in the exact same way that here in the U.S. the institution of Christianity is directly responsible for the steady stream of violent gay bashings and murders that have been taking place regularly for the last 50 years but that are only rarely reported in the mainstream media, inspired by the Christian institution's active provocation . Matthew Shepard wasn't the exception, he was a symbol of an ongoing assault on gay people. The institution of Christianity has blood on it's hands.

Asking these questions of "random" Muslims we befriend at McDonald's probably isn't a good idea, but for me, if I'm to be friends with someone and their religious fantasies include theological justification of beating gay men to death with baseball bats or ritualized forms of murder, flogging, imprisonment then we're gonna have to talk about that. The "there are good Christians and good Muslims" argument that says we shouldn't point a hard bright light on the source cause of these beliefs because not all adherents share these beliefs isn't relevant in the face of institutionally-inspired genocide. The same applies to the throwing of acid in the faces of women who break away from religious custom. Imo, any Muslim or Christian that doesn't actively take a stand against their religious leaders who advocate or instigate violence aren't "good" Muslims or Christians and are fully complicit through their avoidance of these issues...they have blood on their hands too.

I find it interesting that if a non-religious institutional belief system systematically advocates violence against a specific group of people then critical analysis and questioning is usually seen as ok - and law enforcement agencies publicly announce their formal investigation, but when the group advocating the violence is a religion and the target is gay or women then so many people fall back on minimizing rationalizations and no criminal investigation is apparent. Odd. Once again religion gets a pass.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
User avatar
pink_trike
 
Posts: 1038
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am

Re: Islam

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:27 am

I have to ask what the point of this conversation is?

if it is so important why not go to the relevant culture and moan, or is moralising in a safe environment above eating your own faecies nowadays?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Islam

Postby Jechbi » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:15 am

Hi Pink,
pink_trike wrote:The institution of Islam is directly responsible for the creation of this violent cause and effect situation in the exact same way that here in the U.S. the institution of Christianity is directly responsible for the steady stream of violent gay bashings and murders that have been taking place regularly for the last 50 years but that are only rarely reported in the mainstream media, inspired by the Christian institution's active provocation . Matthew Shepard wasn't the exception, he was a symbol of an ongoing assault on gay people. The institution of Christianity has blood on it's hands.
To me that appears to be an overgeneralization. The broad rubric of an "institution of Christianity" is attributing the cause-and-effect relationship far too imprecisely. In these types of cases, it's certainly possible to be more specific than to say that Matthew Shepard was killed because of "Christians," and to hold some faceless institution responsible.

pink_trike wrote:Asking these questions of "random" Muslims we befriend at McDonald's probably isn't a good idea, but for me, if I'm to be friends with someone and their religious fantasies include theological justification of beating gay men to death with baseball bats or ritualized forms of murder, flogging, imprisonment then we're gonna have to talk about that.
Damn tootin'. I wouldn't even want to be friends with such people.

pink_trike wrote:The "there are good Christians and good Muslims" argument that says we shouldn't point a hard bright light on the source cause of these beliefs because not all adherents share these beliefs isn't relevant in the face of institutionally-inspired genocide.
No, it doesn't say we should't point a hard bright light on the source. But it does say that we should aim the light at the appropriate object. Religion might be the lame excuse people invoke for horrible conduct, yes. But there's much more to that type of behavior than just religion.

pink_trike wrote:I find it interesting that if a non-religious institutional belief system systematically advocates violence against a specific group of people then critical analysis and questioning is usually seen as ok - and law enforcement agencies publicly announce their formal investigation, but when the group advocating the violence is a religion and the target is gay or women then so many people fall back on minimizing rationalizations and no criminal investigation is apparent. Odd. Once again religion gets a pass.
No, religion doesn't get a pass. But it doesn't make any sense at all to condemn all of Christianity or all of Islam due to the extremely poor moral conduct of some individuals who self-identify as members of those faiths.

btw, I admire your sense of justice and agree with much of your perspective.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Jechbi
 
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am

Re: Islam

Postby pink_trike » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:16 am

Jechbi wrote:1. To me that appears to be an overgeneralization. The broad rubric of an "institution of Christianity" is attributing the cause-and-effect relationship far too imprecisely. In these types of cases, it's certainly possible to be more specific than to say that Matthew Shepard was killed because of "Christians," and to hold some faceless institution responsible.

2. Damn tootin'. I wouldn't even want to be friends with such people.

3. Religion might be the lame excuse people invoke for horrible conduct, yes.

4. But it doesn't make any sense at all to condemn all of Christianity or all of Islam due to the extremely poor moral conduct of some individuals who self-identify as members of those faiths.

5. btw, I admire your sense of justice and agree with much of your perspective.


1. It's certainly a very complex multifaceted issue - politics, enormous amounts of money, high-powered careers, level of education, power, etc...all play a part, but looming very large within this issue is the multimillions of dollars that nearly all factions of religious institutions annually pour into maintaining the 2nd class citizenship of gay people. It is this 2nd class citizenship declared by religious authority on the basis of statements attributed to the divine being who has the power to keep believers from frying in Hell for eternity that gives simple religious people permission to persecute gay people, even to carry out The Supreme Leader of the Universe's unambiguous command to put homosexuals to death. I don't know where you live, but here in the U.S. the most well-funded and powerful faction of the Christian Institution places great emphasis on a literal understanding of the Holy book as "the authentic word of God", and usually the second defense (the first defense is inevitably "he came on to me") that pops out of the mouth of someone arrested for a violent act against a gay person is something like "I was following the will of God", which is not infrequently used as a defense in court.

2. But you may be already...have you checked? :tongue:

3. The physical acts of violence against gay people are nearly always committed by simple people. When they site their faith as justification it isn't a lame excuse...they nearly always seem to believably mean it.

4. It does when said "extremely poor moral conduct" is completely consistent with The Supreme Leader's own words, The Holy Book, and the constant drone of hate (explicit or implicit) regarding gay people from religious leaders, many of whom openly state that gays should be killed.

5. I'm sure we have more common ground than uncommon. :smile:

I'm very aware that there are many Christians and Muslims who don't believe that gays should be killed, or that acid should be thrown in the face of women who step outside of the boundaries of religious authority...but, if they support the institution and the institution's leaders that holds these beliefs to be integral to the religion by remaining silent out of fear for their soul's final resting place - then they are also clearly supporting the direct causes of violence and death. As long as there is religious provocations of violence against gay people or anyone else I'll speak up about it ,and I'll question friends who are believers, hopefully in a way that they can receive without being offended so that there can be a dialogue.

---

The thread has strayed a bit from the OP's question so I'll try to push it back in that direction by stating again:

Like most religions, it has devolved over the many centuries from being a far-reaching brilliant body of astronomy and mathematics voiced in allegorical format with instructions for living an integral "way of life" consistent with the "movement of the heavens" - into a fundamentalist, literalistic social code controlled by a powerful elite intent on preserving their religious and secular power and social control through the use of fear rather than through love which is it's roots.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
User avatar
pink_trike
 
Posts: 1038
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am

Previous

Return to Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 6 guests