YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:55 am

I want to make it clear to everyone on this thread that everyone is welcome here at Dhamma Wheel, regardless of their religious/spiritual affiliation, gender, sexuality, race, natiionality, dis/ability - whatever. There is a wide variety of fora and people can discuss what they so choose, or present ideas for the sake of discussion - all within reason.
There is only one forum, the Classical Mahavihara forum, which has strict rules on discussion and the provenance of the ideas presented in those discussions.
I want to make it abundantly clear that Dhamma Wheel is a venue for the discussion of the Theravada by all those who have a genuine interest. It is not a ghetto for people who feel that they can safely criticise and infer fault with the doctrines of non-Theravadins - however subtly imputed.
If members feel the need to present ideas with a Mahayanist provenance, for the sake of discussion on this forum, so be it - they have the freedom to do so.
If some members are uncomfortable with this inclusive attitude - then maybe they should find another forum that is more to their liking.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby pink_trike » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:49 pm

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:55 pm


User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:05 am

I agree with you Tilt, but I think its interesting that researchers are coming to conclusions that seem, at least on the surface, to coincide with the Dhamma. The reason I started this thread was because of Metzinger's conclusions of 'no-self' were derived at from his work in neuroscience and philosophy and seem to reflect the Buddha's doctrine of anatta. It no way replaces the Buddhadhamma, but it is an intersting development that as we progress knowledge in certain mundane fields, it appears to support contentions found in the Dhamma. Another example my teacher mentions during his ten-day courses is the work of Rutherford(?) in nuclear physics which, he said. supported the Buddha's notion of the atthakalapa.
As I said, it is interesting and somewhat inspiring. An inspiration to continue practice and engage with the Dhamma - rather than replacing it.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby Jechbi » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:23 am

Having listened to the radio interview, I was left with questions about how Metzinger accounts for the experience of consciousness as he describes it. He seems to reject a purely materialistic view, which leads me to wonder, then what? A lot of the radio interview consists of Metzinger talking about his own lucid dreams and out-of-body experiences, and he describes a luminous other body that he says hundreds of thousands of people have experienced over the ages in out-of-body experiences. This, he says, probably accounts for the theory that a person has a soul. But he doesn't explain what would account for such an experience, although he mentions "phantom limbs" that amputees sometimes also experience still having. That's all interesting, but I was hoping for a little more science out of him. Maybe that's in his book.

User avatar
zavk
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby zavk » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:59 am

Wow, it is encouraging to see the conviction and trust that others have in the Dhamma. :anjali: :group: It certainly inspires me to work harder.

In recent years, I too have developed more and more trust in the Dhamma. As Ben suggests, a certain degree of my trust in the Dhamma has been strengthened by non-Buddhist works that arrive at similar conclusions. I have learned much from them and am curious to learn more. This doesn’t mean that I am about to take refuge in them. The Buddhadhamma has so far proven to be the only real refuge for me. :bow: :bow: :bow:

But does this then mean that all other approaches—scientific, philosophical, artistic, or otherwise—will always pale in comparison with Buddhism? Does that mean that I can say ‘objectively’ that they offer no true refuge for anyone, anywhere?

I don’t know. My experience with the Dhamma has taken me where I am, and based on where I have come to I feel convinced that the Buddhadhamma is my one true refuge. My experience gives me that much grounds to make that claim. But I wonder if it allows me to claim anything more than that without it being anything but a speculation.

It might indeed be the case that all other approaches--when compared to the Buddhadhamma--would always fall short. Maybe. I can’t say for sure. But I’m just not prepared to take the leap out of the grounds of my present experience (if such a leap were possible at all) to assert that claim.

This is not to say that we cannot engage in comparison with other approaches, making distinctions here and there and calling out flaws and inconsistencies where we find them. It is important to do so, in order to develop greater clarity about our own position and other people’s positions--this, I would add, is an ethical obligation.

But even as I develop greater clarity, I don’t think it allows me to ever leap out of my position, as if I could detach myself from the conditions that have brought me to where I am and establish a free-floating, aerial 'God's eye' view to unambiguously pass judgements about the different positions--this acknowledgement of one's situatedness, I would say, is also an ethical obligation.

So even as I engage with different approaches, I’m also trying to be mindful about how I make distinctions between them. Distinctions are unavoidable. But I want to be cautious about how I make them because distinctions have the tendency to exclude, establish hierarchy and isolate. With my limited experience of the Buddhadhamma, I’m not too sure about the skilfulness of that. Distinctions, as we are taught, are the great 'worldly winds'.

This is of course what I understand from my position at the moment. To the extent that the Buddhadhamma is a path, my position will very well change. But even if my position changes, I still don't see how I could levitate above the ground on which the path unfolds.
With metta,
zavk

User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby pink_trike » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:58 am

Last edited by pink_trike on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:28 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby pink_trike » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:50 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby pink_trike » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:06 am

Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

User avatar
zavk
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby zavk » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:17 am

With metta,
zavk

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:45 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:21 am


User avatar
zavk
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Postby zavk » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:46 am

With metta,
zavk


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 53 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine