You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
zavk
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Post by zavk »

Ben wrote: Hi Ed
But even as I develop greater clarity, I don’t think it allows me to ever leap out of my position, as if I could detach myself from the conditions that have brought me to where I am and establish a free-floating, aerial 'God's eye' view to unambiguously pass judgements about the different positions
Isn't it this that we do when we practice and develop the special vision of vipassana?
...just a thought!
Yes, you are right. Vipassana is about developing a certain 'special vision' of things 'as they really are'. But as far as my understanding and experience of Buddhist doctrine and practice goes, this is a clear seeing of the true nature of 'my' experience. If there is a 'special vision' to be developed it is about seeing how consciousness, or more precisely the five khandas, are anicca and anatta.

It may be the case that this 'special vision' would allow me to perceive other positions differently. But even then my current understanding of the Dhamma tells me that it can only be a perception of those positions that emerges out of the interplay of the khandas. So even if I come to see these positions 'as they really are', what I am 'seeing' is more accurately how I am conscious of these positions rather than how they are in and of themselves. In other words, I am still within the ground of 'my' own experience. This is what I mean when I say that I cannot leap out of my position.

There is of course the possibility of developing a kind of omniscience that the Buddha purportedly had. But hey, I don't know what that is and I don't even want to begin to imagine how that would be like! The five khandas are more than enough for me to work with!

:meditate:
With metta,
zavk
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Post by tiltbillings »

zavk wrote:... So even if I come to see these positions 'as they really are', what I am 'seeing' is more accurately how I am conscious of these positions rather than how they are in and of themselves. In other words, I am still within the ground of 'my' own experience. This is what I mean when I say that I cannot leap out of my position.
It is not to leap out of your position, but to cease coloring your position with grasping after, pushing away, and the assumption of a self thingie.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote: . . . equally complex and deep cosmologies. ...
Cosmologies. Please explain what you mean by "cosmologies," so that we are on the same page, and please explain which of the Buddhist cosmologies you are talking about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
zavk
Posts: 1161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: You are not a self: radio interview with T Metzinger

Post by zavk »

tiltbillings wrote:
zavk wrote:... So even if I come to see these positions 'as they really are', what I am 'seeing' is more accurately how I am conscious of these positions rather than how they are in and of themselves. In other words, I am still within the ground of 'my' own experience. This is what I mean when I say that I cannot leap out of my position.
It is not to leap out of your position, but to cease coloring your position wuith grasping after, pushing away, and the assumption of a self thingie
Hi Tilt,

Yes, that's how I understand it to. But I think there could be a possible confusion here. The word 'position' appears a few times. Let me explain what I meant and replace the word 'position' with other phrases:
  • - When I wrote 'these positions' I was referring to non-Buddhist modes of thinking/practice--e.g. those of Metzinger, and other religions, philosophies or sciences.

    - When I wrote 'leap out of my position' I was referring to the context of experience--which is to say, the confluence of the five khandhas.
Because the five khandas provide the context of my experience, even if I develop a 'special vision' of non-Buddhist modes of thinking through vipassana, I am really seeing into the context of my experience (the five khandhas) rather than those modes of thinking/practice in and of themselves. It is not as if non-Buddhist modes of thinking/practices are simply self-existing 'out there' beyond the context of my experience.

This 'special vision' is only possible if--as you say--I don't grasp after, push away, or assume a self thingie within the context of my experience. Nevertheless, even without a self thingie, this 'special vision' is still a vision of the context of my experience. My 'special vision' does not extend outside the context of my experience.

So because I am neither grasping after or pushing away the context of my experience, but simply staying with and witnessing the context of my experience, I say that I cannot 'leap out of my position'--because it is not about leaping out.

My apologies for the clunky writing. But I believe we are on the same page. :anjali:
With metta,
zavk
Post Reply