Abandoning hindrances

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Brizzy

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote: I have stated that the description of Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration can be found in the suttas.
Okay, but what descriptions? And how do they make your point? You done a lot of "I have stated this, I have stated that," but you have not shown that what you state is so.
The definitions given in the suttas do not align with such ideas as momentary concentration. How do you define mindfulness and concentration?
Show us. What the definitions? What is momentary concentration? I'll be happy to define mindfulness and concentration, but at this point it is incumbent upon you to make your point first, given that you are the one who made the opening claims.
As far as which suttas I think are debatable... well MN24 is rather a strange one. Nowhere in the whole sutta canon is this representation to be found and its tone and narrative is distinctly different from the rest of the Majjhima Nikaya.
That is quite a subjective assessment.
Hi
Actually you first brought up the subject :-
"So, because it is not exactly spelled out in point by point detail in the suttas something that cultivates mindfulness and concentration is a problem? Says who?"
You claim the technique cultivates mindfulness and concentration. It is really incumbent on you to define your understanding.

As far as the sutta MN24 goes...yes that is a subjective assessment.

:smile:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:
Hi
Actually you first brought up the subject :-
"So, because it is not exactly spelled out in point by point detail in the suttas something that cultivates mindfulness and concentration is a problem? Says who?"
You claim the technique cultivates mindfulness and concentration. It is really incumbent on you to define your understanding.
Given that you before that comment claimed that it is the suttas to which you point, you made this statement:
Brizzy wrote:Where exactly is the technique of walking super slow taught or "noting"?
to which I responded with:
So, because it is not exactly spelled out in point by point detail in the suttas something that cultivates mindfulness and concentration is a problem? Says who?
You brought up the criticism of the Mahasi Sayadaw technique first, to which I respnded. It is incumbent upon you to do the initial heavy lifting here of explaining and supporting your position, if you are serious about a dialogue. At best all we have gotten is your opinion, without any supporting discussion or evidence, that the suttas do not support the Mahasi Sayadaw teachings.
As far as the sutta MN24 goes...yes that is a subjective assessment.
And you have given us no reason to take it seriously.
The answer is to keep on practising and learning and if I ever come across a coherent and convincing argument that the suttas supported "modern vipassana" techniques then I would have to abandon my views on them.
The real problem here is that you have given us is ungrounded criticism and opinion without any supporting discussion from you for it. I am still waiting for you to present your position in terms of actual texts quoted and discussed as to how they support your claims.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Jechbi
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Briz,
Brizzy wrote:... by viewing such a site you should be ready to have your own ideas and views challenged.
Naturally. But to me it seems as though you are saying that everyone should reject certain practice methods that you personally found to be unsuitable for yourself. So this does not seem to be a way of encouraging others. It seems as if you are putting yourself into the position of a teacher, but your lesson plan is: "Give up what you're doing, because you're completely wrong."
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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mikenz66
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote: My basis for such a claim as "The Mahasi Sayadaw method is mind numbing" is personal experience.
Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

Metta
Mike
Brizzy

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
Hi
Actually you first brought up the subject :-
"So, because it is not exactly spelled out in point by point detail in the suttas something that cultivates mindfulness and concentration is a problem? Says who?"
You claim the technique cultivates mindfulness and concentration. It is really incumbent on you to define your understanding.
Given that you before that comment claimed that it is the suttas to which you point, you made this statement:
Brizzy wrote:Where exactly is the technique of walking super slow taught or "noting"?
to which I responded with:
So, because it is not exactly spelled out in point by point detail in the suttas something that cultivates mindfulness and concentration is a problem? Says who?
You brought up the criticism of the Mahasi Sayadaw technique first, to which I respnded. It is incumbent upon you to do the initial heavy lifting here of explaining and supporting your position, if you are serious about a dialogue. At best all we have gotten is your opinion, without any supporting discussion or evidence, that the suttas do not support the Mahasi Sayadaw teachings.
As far as the sutta MN24 goes...yes that is a subjective assessment.
And you have given us no reason to take it seriously.
The answer is to keep on practising and learning and if I ever come across a coherent and convincing argument that the suttas supported "modern vipassana" techniques then I would have to abandon my views on them.
The real problem here is that you have given us is ungrounded criticism and opinion without any supporting discussion from you for it. I am still waiting for you to present your position in terms of actual texts quoted and discussed as to how they support your claims.
Hi

I can see you are not going to give on this, so my understanding of mindfulness is :- "And what bikkhus, is the faculty of mindfulness? Here bhikkhus, the noble disciple is mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and wisdom, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said......." Samyutta Nikaya 48 10(10) Analysis.
Concentration.....Same sutta describes Right concentration as jhana.

As far as MN24 goes, what is not subjective is that the material in that sutta is not formulated in such a way anywhere else in the suttas. Do you not find that in the least bit odd? Since that particular sutta is the framework of the visuddhimagga.

You say my criticism is unfounded, well since the modern practices seem to be based on later material, I am struggling to find any sutta material that could validate such techniques.

Since I have offered up a couple of answers, could you explain how, you understand mindfulness and concentration?
:smile:
Brizzy

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Brizzy »

Jechbi wrote:Hi Briz,
Brizzy wrote:... by viewing such a site you should be ready to have your own ideas and views challenged.
Naturally. But to me it seems as though you are saying that everyone should reject certain practice methods that you personally found to be unsuitable for yourself. So this does not seem to be a way of encouraging others. It seems as if you are putting yourself into the position of a teacher, but your lesson plan is: "Give up what you're doing, because you're completely wrong."
Hi

I am not telling people to do anything. I am merely offering my opinion. If our beliefs are challenged, then this is sometimes a good thing. The one thing that such challenging, can accomplish is to spur us on to investigate more. If we feel we dont need to investigate, because we "know" then that is also good and we would not feel upset if our views and opinions are challenged.

:smile:
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Sanghamitta »

Can I ask you a completely open and unprejudiced question Brizzy. What was/is your motive for your post ? Its not a trick question.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Jechbi
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Jechbi »

Howdy Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:If our beliefs are challenged, then this is sometimes a good thing. The one thing that such challenging, can accomplish is to spur us on to investigate more. If we feel we dont need to investigate, because we "know" then that is also good and we would not feel upset if our views and opinions are challenged.
If my language in any way conveyed that I am "upset," that was a misfire. I'm not feeling upset. It's sometimes difficult to discuss differing viewpoints on print-based boards like this, because people are constantly assuming that the other person is feeling upset when there is disagreement. Rest assured, that is not the case here, and thanks for your concern.

A few thoughts: With regard to MN24, the purifications also are mentioned in the Dasuttara Sutta in the DN, so their inclusion in MN24 is not without precedent. You are right, though, that (according to the footnote in my translation) these seven purifications are not analyzed as a set anwhere else in the Nikayas, but that the sevenfold scheme forms the scaffolding for the Visuddhimagga. This footnote doesn't go so far as to suggest a forgery, however, if that's what you're suggesting. Although it seems as though we ought to keep an open mind about these things.

On the subject of sitting techniques, it seems clear to me that there are many examples in the Suttas of individuals engaged in sitting practice, and the Buddha praising that. (Here, for example.) And there are examples in the Suttas of individuals approaching learned monks for guidance in matters pertaining to the Dhamma. So it seems natural to me that today, lay people such as ourselves would approach those of more advanced learning for guidance in matters pertaining to the Dhamma, such as whether sitting practice is appropriate and, if so, how to engage in it. All of this seems to be in accordance with what we find in the Suttas.

But I find no Sutta material to validate your practice of putting yourself out as an authority in opposition to Dhamma teachers including venerable monks. If we are going to follow the example of the Suttas very strictly, then I would ask you to examine your own approach to Dhamma instruction here in this thread in the same manner. Can you find me some examples in the Suttas of lay followers challenging the instructions of venerable monks, and of those lay followers interpreting the Buddha's teachings to give instructions to others, and the Buddha praising that? Because it seems to me that you have a double standard here: You're asking for a strict Sutta validation of specific sitting-practice techniques to justify engaging in them, but you do not seem to worry about having a strict Sutta validation of your own interpretation technique before engaging in it.

Metta
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Brizzy

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Brizzy »

Jechbi wrote:Howdy Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:If our beliefs are challenged, then this is sometimes a good thing. The one thing that such challenging, can accomplish is to spur us on to investigate more. If we feel we dont need to investigate, because we "know" then that is also good and we would not feel upset if our views and opinions are challenged.
If my language in any way conveyed that I am "upset," that was a misfire. I'm not feeling upset. It's sometimes difficult to discuss differing viewpoints on print-based boards like this, because people are constantly assuming that the other person is feeling upset when there is disagreement. Rest assured, that is not the case here, and thanks for your concern.

A few thoughts: With regard to MN24, the purifications also are mentioned in the Dasuttara Sutta in the DN, so their inclusion in MN24 is not without precedent. You are right, though, that (according to the footnote in my translation) these seven purifications are not analyzed as a set anwhere else in the Nikayas, but that the sevenfold scheme forms the scaffolding for the Visuddhimagga. This footnote doesn't go so far as to suggest a forgery, however, if that's what you're suggesting. Although it seems as though we ought to keep an open mind about these things.

On the subject of sitting techniques, it seems clear to me that there are many examples in the Suttas of individuals engaged in sitting practice, and the Buddha praising that. (Here, for example.) And there are examples in the Suttas of individuals approaching learned monks for guidance in matters pertaining to the Dhamma. So it seems natural to me that today, lay people such as ourselves would approach those of more advanced learning for guidance in matters pertaining to the Dhamma, such as whether sitting practice is appropriate and, if so, how to engage in it. All of this seems to be in accordance with what we find in the Suttas.

But I find no Sutta material to validate your practice of putting yourself out as an authority in opposition to Dhamma teachers including venerable monks. If we are going to follow the example of the Suttas very strictly, then I would ask you to examine your own approach to Dhamma instruction here in this thread in the same manner. Can you find me some examples in the Suttas of lay followers challenging the instructions of venerable monks, and of those lay followers interpreting the Buddha's teachings to give instructions to others, and the Buddha praising that? Because it seems to me that you have a double standard here: You're asking for a strict Sutta validation of specific sitting-practice techniques to justify engaging in them, but you do not seem to worry about having a strict Sutta validation of your own interpretation technique before engaging in it.

Metta
Hi

I hope I am not having double standards. I do think it is important though, that we are independent minded and are ready and willing to investigate. Just because tradition says so or such and such teacher says so, does not mean we should not compare their teachings to the suttas for authenticity. The idea of "the guru is always right" is a dangerous one to hold. As far as my ideas or observations go, that is all they are. I am not saying that they have to be right. I am stating Dhamma as I see it and I am voicing my own doubts on the validity of certain teachings. It is all my views (baggage) and I am surprised that you think I am trying to be a teacher :smile: As far as the idea that my interpretation of technique is not validated by the suttas.......I dont see anything in my post that is not at some level accepted by most monks. I personally have drawn inspiration from Bhikkhu Thanissaro and Bhante Vilaramsi. All monks are worthy of respect and those in the Mahasi tradition appear to be strict followers of the Vinaya, which in itself makes them righteous monks. My thoughts are that tradition/time/politics has changed and altered important parts of the original teachings of the suttas. The suttas are for the most part clear/lucid and coherent teachings that speak for themselves. Can I ask you a question? Have you read many suttas?
:smile:
Brizzy

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Brizzy »

Sanghamitta wrote:Can I ask you a completely open and unprejudiced question Brizzy. What was/is your motive for your post ? Its not a trick question.
Hi
Thanks :focus: I had almost forgotten what my initial inquiry was. How do meditators in the Mahasi and Goenka tradition "abandon" the hindrances?
:smile:
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Ben
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Ben »

Thank you Mike for your excellent post!
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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mikenz66
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by mikenz66 »

Brizzy wrote: I had almost forgotten what my initial inquiry was. How do meditators in the Mahasi and Goenka tradition "abandon" the hindrances?
As I said before, as far as I know, the same as anyone else.

I'm not averse to having my assumptions challenged. However, you asked this question and I gave several links to U Pandita's book and as far as I can see the antidodes to the hindrences that he describes there are just the usual ones given in the Suttas and Commentary. Here is a summary of the Jhana factors that overcome particular hindrences:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... Hindrances" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hindrances and Antidotes
Aspects of the concentrated mind have the capacity to remedy problematic mental states. Here are the factors of the first jhāna, or state of concentration, paired with the hindrance each overcomes:

Jhāna factor: Overcomes
vitakka, aiming: thīna middha, sloth and torpor
vicāra, rubbing: vicikicchā, skeptical doubt
pīti, delight: vyāpāda, aversion
sukha, happiness: uddhaccakukkuca, restelessness
ekaggatā, one-pointedness: kāmacchanda, sense desire
Unless you point to something specific in some documented instructions that contradicts the Suttas, there seems to be nothing much to discuss on this particular topic.


Mike
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Jechbi
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:I hope I am not having double standards.
Well it appears you look for a strict Sutta validation for some things, but not for others, based on what is convenient from your personal perspective.
Brizzy wrote:Can I ask you a question? Have you read many suttas?
I love to read suttas. I don't know what you would regard as "many." I haven't kept count.

I would like to see your answer to this question:
mikenz66 wrote:Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?
:thanks:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:
I can see you are not going to give on this, so my understanding of mindfulness is :- "And what bikkhus, is the faculty of mindfulness? Here bhikkhus, the noble disciple is mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and wisdom, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said......." Samyutta Nikaya 48 10(10) Analysis.
Concentration.....Same sutta describes Right concentration as jhana.
And what here contradicts Mahasi Sayadaw and U Pandita’s teachings? Nothing that you have shown.
As far as MN24 goes, what is not subjective is that the material in that sutta is not formulated in such a way anywhere else in the suttas. Do you not find that in the least bit odd? Since that particular sutta is the framework of the visuddhimagga.
Odd? Not really. There is an equivalent text in the Madhyama Agama, which tell us that it is pre-schismatic/pre-sectarian in origin.
You say my criticism is unfounded
What I said is that you have, yet, to provide an actual argument to support your contexts. So far you have asserted an opinion, but you have not given a reasoned, exampled argument for your claims.
well since the modern practices seem to be based on later material, I am struggling to find any sutta material that could validate such techniques.
The Satipatthana Sutta and the 4 suttas I quoted above are a good start.
Since I have offered up a couple of answers, could you explain how, you understand mindfulness and concentration?
See the texts I have quoted and referenced.
Brizzy wrote:I had almost forgotten what my initial inquiry was. How do meditators in the Mahasi and Goenka tradition "abandon" the hindrances?
What is the nature of the hindrances?
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote: My basis for such a claim as "The Mahasi Sayadaw method is mind numbing" is personal experience.
Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

Metta
Mike
Have you worked with an actual, trained Mahasi Sayadaw technique teacher? So, what was his/her answer to this question?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Brizzy

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
I can see you are not going to give on this, so my understanding of mindfulness is :- "And what bikkhus, is the faculty of mindfulness? Here bhikkhus, the noble disciple is mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and wisdom, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said......." Samyutta Nikaya 48 10(10) Analysis.
Concentration.....Same sutta describes Right concentration as jhana.
And what here contradicts Mahasi Sayadaw and U Pandita’s teachings? Nothing that you have shown.
As far as MN24 goes, what is not subjective is that the material in that sutta is not formulated in such a way anywhere else in the suttas. Do you not find that in the least bit odd? Since that particular sutta is the framework of the visuddhimagga.
Odd? Not really. There is an equivalent text in the Madhyama Agama, which tell us that it is pre-schismatic/pre-sectarian in origin.
You say my criticism is unfounded
What I said is that you have, yet, to provide an actual argument to support your contexts. So far you have asserted an opinion, but you have not given a reasoned, exampled argument for your claims.
well since the modern practices seem to be based on later material, I am struggling to find any sutta material that could validate such techniques.
The Satipatthana Sutta and the 4 suttas I quoted above are a good start.
Since I have offered up a couple of answers, could you explain how, you understand mindfulness and concentration?
See the texts I have quoted and referenced.
Brizzy wrote:I had almost forgotten what my initial inquiry was. How do meditators in the Mahasi and Goenka tradition "abandon" the hindrances?
What is the nature of the hindrances?
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote: My basis for such a claim as "The Mahasi Sayadaw method is mind numbing" is personal experience.
Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

Metta
Mike
Have you worked with an actual, trained Mahasi Sayadaw technique teacher? So, what was his/her answer to this question?
Hi

The Satipatthana in no way supports modern techniques. The other suttas you quoted are a bit like putting the cart before the horse. the Buddha was talking to highly developed individuals. Using such a technique from the beginning like I mentioned before is like taking the result as the path. Could you provide evidence in the suttas of momentary concentration? Do you agree or dis-agree that right concentration is jhana? . You seem to agree with the definition of mindfulness, I gave from the suttas. How is this definition similar to the Mahasi technique? Where is such a practice of noting mentioned? How can bare awareness magically transform into wisdom?
:focus: I dont know what you mean by "What is the nature of the hindrances?" un-wholesome/impermanent/causally arisen? how does the Mahasi meditation centres teach "abandoning the hindrances" is it just noting them?
BTW This is a discussion Smile :smile:
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