Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.
alan
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby alan » Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:51 am

Will any of this matter without a strong base of concentration?

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:53 am

Understanding this so deeply and completely that one lives continuously with such Mindfulness and Insight is a whole nuther matter....

Well said!
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby alan » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:03 am

I have no insights to reveal after Vipassana, and I would not recommend it to a friend. I found it to be a waste of time.

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:12 am

alan wrote:I gave up Vipassana because I found it to be a waste of time. Forget about "insight knowledge". Just concentrate, and then take it from there.

Hello Alan,

You may like to read this article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
One Tool Among Many - The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby christopher::: » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:38 am

alan wrote:Will any of this matter without a strong base of concentration?


My own experience is it's impossible to be mindful without also having strength of concentration, simultaneously. Last night i didn't get enough sleep, had to teach this morning, have papers that need grading... Have not been able to muster much mindfulness or concentration beyond what is needed to complete such tasks.

Ben wrote:
Understanding this so deeply and completely that one lives continuously with such Mindfulness and Insight is a whole nuther matter....

Well said!


:smile:

Chris wrote:One Tool Among Many - The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html



Thanks for that, Chris.

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby alan » Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:52 am

Thanks Chris! That was an excellent article. It is bedtime here in the U.S., but I look forward to conversing with you later--goodnight!

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:03 am

I have found Vipassana far from a waste of time. I learned first the Burmese method and then the more informal method taught by Ajahn Chahs community at Chithurst. It has been the basis of my Dhamma practice.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Sanghamitta » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:21 am

Having just read the article linked to by Chris I would add that Vipassana forms the basis of my practice alongside Samatha, I too was taught to see them as complimentary and mutually supportive. I realise that I see Samatha as the default that needs no further comment. Vipassana still feels to me like something innovative, but thats just me I suspect .Thats the order in which I learned them.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby christopher::: » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:26 pm

Definitely, Sanghamitta, they go hand in hand... It seems like all the factors of skillful dhamma practice are inter-related and mutually reinforcing....

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby catmoon » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:00 am

Hiya Smokey! You still around?

I stumbled into an insight the other day. For a brief moment I saw the extent of my mental obscurations. I was like floating into the air on a foggy day, looking down at the ground, and seeing where the clear spots were. I could see that attachment to this idea or that was obscuring the truth about things. Sadly, not the kind of insight that will do anyone else much good.

Funny thing is, just knowing there is a barrier and it's nature, does not permit seeing through the barrier. You still have to take the barrier apart.

Oh, one thing that might be useful fell out of this. When one is unaware of obscurations, it appears that vision is completely unobstructed in all directions. So the fog analogy isn't a very good one.

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby smokey » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:39 pm

catmoon wrote:Hiya Smokey! You still around?

I stumbled into an insight the other day. For a brief moment I saw the extent of my mental obscurations. I was like floating into the air on a foggy day, looking down at the ground, and seeing where the clear spots were. I could see that attachment to this idea or that was obscuring the truth about things. Sadly, not the kind of insight that will do anyone else much good.

Funny thing is, just knowing there is a barrier and it's nature, does not permit seeing through the barrier. You still have to take the barrier apart.

Oh, one thing that might be useful fell out of this. When one is unaware of obscurations, it appears that vision is completely unobstructed in all directions. So the fog analogy isn't a very good one.


Thank you, Catmoon :D

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:58 pm

There are 4 steps to stream entry:
1) association with spiritual friends (read: a dhamma teacher who can teach you the path -inclusive of insight)
2) listening to the true dhamma (of an (semi)elightened being- discussing the components of reality. four noble truths)
3) appropriate contemplation (yonisomanasikara)
4) practice according to the dhamma

Some people find that their understanding is adequate to jump into numbe 4 without doing number 3. However if number 3 is not done some minght find that their vipassana is fruitless, in my experience. It only makes sense if you can start seeing phenomena in a 'differnt way' (to put it crudely) ie- with some degree of understanding of the dhamma. This is the way to start undermining mundane reality and start the process of true letting go. Seeing everything the same old way will not get us far.

The Buddha once said that it takes Right View and morality before one starts on the four foundations of mindfulness. Two factors which lead to right view are listening to others (paratoghoso) and appropriate contemplation (yonismanasikaro) This leads to insight born of meditation to arise. Otherwise it is just mindfulness and may lead to concentration states (useful, but limiting). What is requires is mindfulness with clear comprehension (sampajanna). Clear comprehension is helped by some degree of prior theoretical understanding (to know what aspect to be mindful of- namely arising and passing away, and of what components/aggregates).

Some may gain insight without step 3 if their faculty of wisdom is strong.

with metta

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby meindzai » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:00 pm

I wouldn't have stated it quite as the poster above, but I have found that most "Vipassana meditation" techniques did not do much for me either. I suspect it's that I just have such a lack of concentration to begin with, the vipassana is just too wobbly for me. Like the Buddha said: "Different strokes for Different folks!" Just kidding :tongue: Though I'm sure we can find something along those lines in the canon.

Anyway, there's plenty to be done just by working with concentration, and it is not devoid of insight.

-M

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby christopher::: » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:17 pm

In line with your "Different Strokes" observation, I sometimes feel that the various methods, approaches, schools and traditions are a bit like music... There is no one "best" way, and people are drawn to what works for them, and "feels right"....

ideally, what feels like home...

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby PeterB » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:31 pm

I was a student of a very well known Vajrayana teacher who used to say " tell me when you feel comfortable in your practice, so I can change it straightaway." He meant it too.

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby christopher::: » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:32 am

Wasn't talking about feeling "comfortable" in the sense of not being challenged... just that people are drawn to what works for them, and feels right. But its a good point, if the Buddha recommended something, and we don't do it simply cause we "don't like" that approach, this could be a warning sign, to try again...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Monkey Mind » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:04 am

Apologies in advance for my ignorance. I am wondering about the experience of "bhango" that occurred on the Goenka retreat. For me it was a mind blowing experience that changed everything about how I practice, and how I conceive of the world and how I relate to it. Most other people on the retreat also experienced this "bhango", and stated that it also had a profound effect on them. Since then I have tried to find more information about this "bhango", and I come up empty handed. (Even know, as I Google it, my name is at the top of the list with a post from another forum....)

So was that an insight, a partial insight, the opening to insight, or none of the above? Goenkaji stated that many students return to the retreats to relive that experience, but that is not appropriate motivation as one should not become attached to it or crave it.
Last edited by Monkey Mind on Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:11 am

Greetings Monkey Mind,

Monkey Mind wrote:Since then I have tried to find more information about this "bhango", and I come up empty handed.

I'm pretty sure it's actually bhanga, which supposedly means dissolving, and is experienced as subtle high-frequency vibration.

Well, that's what I've heard/felt anyway.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Monkey Mind » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:22 am

Thank you. That word provides more hits when I search.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:52 am

bhanga
Isn't that something you smoke in order to get a divine buzz?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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