Abandoning hindrances

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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:09 am

Thank you Mike for your excellent post!
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:47 am

Brizzy wrote: I had almost forgotten what my initial inquiry was. How do meditators in the Mahasi and Goenka tradition "abandon" the hindrances?

As I said before, as far as I know, the same as anyone else.

I'm not averse to having my assumptions challenged. However, you asked this question and I gave several links to U Pandita's book and as far as I can see the antidodes to the hindrences that he describes there are just the usual ones given in the Suttas and Commentary. Here is a summary of the Jhana factors that overcome particular hindrences:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... Hindrances
Hindrances and Antidotes
Aspects of the concentrated mind have the capacity to remedy problematic mental states. Here are the factors of the first jhāna, or state of concentration, paired with the hindrance each overcomes:

Jhāna factor: Overcomes
vitakka, aiming: thīna middha, sloth and torpor
vicāra, rubbing: vicikicchā, skeptical doubt
pīti, delight: vyāpāda, aversion
sukha, happiness: uddhaccakukkuca, restelessness
ekaggatā, one-pointedness: kāmacchanda, sense desire

Unless you point to something specific in some documented instructions that contradicts the Suttas, there seems to be nothing much to discuss on this particular topic.


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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Jechbi » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:15 am

Hi Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:I hope I am not having double standards.
Well it appears you look for a strict Sutta validation for some things, but not for others, based on what is convenient from your personal perspective.

Brizzy wrote:Can I ask you a question? Have you read many suttas?
I love to read suttas. I don't know what you would regard as "many." I haven't kept count.

I would like to see your answer to this question:
mikenz66 wrote:Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

:thanks:
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:39 am

Brizzy wrote:
I can see you are not going to give on this, so my understanding of mindfulness is :- "And what bikkhus, is the faculty of mindfulness? Here bhikkhus, the noble disciple is mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and wisdom, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said......." Samyutta Nikaya 48 10(10) Analysis.
Concentration.....Same sutta describes Right concentration as jhana.


And what here contradicts Mahasi Sayadaw and U Pandita’s teachings? Nothing that you have shown.

As far as MN24 goes, what is not subjective is that the material in that sutta is not formulated in such a way anywhere else in the suttas. Do you not find that in the least bit odd? Since that particular sutta is the framework of the visuddhimagga.


Odd? Not really. There is an equivalent text in the Madhyama Agama, which tell us that it is pre-schismatic/pre-sectarian in origin.

You say my criticism is unfounded


What I said is that you have, yet, to provide an actual argument to support your contexts. So far you have asserted an opinion, but you have not given a reasoned, exampled argument for your claims.

well since the modern practices seem to be based on later material, I am struggling to find any sutta material that could validate such techniques.


The Satipatthana Sutta and the 4 suttas I quoted above are a good start.

Since I have offered up a couple of answers, could you explain how, you understand mindfulness and concentration?
See the texts I have quoted and referenced.

Brizzy wrote:I had almost forgotten what my initial inquiry was. How do meditators in the Mahasi and Goenka tradition "abandon" the hindrances?


What is the nature of the hindrances?

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote: My basis for such a claim as "The Mahasi Sayadaw method is mind numbing" is personal experience.

Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

Metta
Mike


Have you worked with an actual, trained Mahasi Sayadaw technique teacher? So, what was his/her answer to this question?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Brizzy » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:11 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:
I can see you are not going to give on this, so my understanding of mindfulness is :- "And what bikkhus, is the faculty of mindfulness? Here bhikkhus, the noble disciple is mindful, possessing supreme mindfulness and wisdom, one who remembers and recollects what was done and said......." Samyutta Nikaya 48 10(10) Analysis.
Concentration.....Same sutta describes Right concentration as jhana.


And what here contradicts Mahasi Sayadaw and U Pandita’s teachings? Nothing that you have shown.

As far as MN24 goes, what is not subjective is that the material in that sutta is not formulated in such a way anywhere else in the suttas. Do you not find that in the least bit odd? Since that particular sutta is the framework of the visuddhimagga.


Odd? Not really. There is an equivalent text in the Madhyama Agama, which tell us that it is pre-schismatic/pre-sectarian in origin.

You say my criticism is unfounded


What I said is that you have, yet, to provide an actual argument to support your contexts. So far you have asserted an opinion, but you have not given a reasoned, exampled argument for your claims.

well since the modern practices seem to be based on later material, I am struggling to find any sutta material that could validate such techniques.


The Satipatthana Sutta and the 4 suttas I quoted above are a good start.

Since I have offered up a couple of answers, could you explain how, you understand mindfulness and concentration?
See the texts I have quoted and referenced.

Brizzy wrote:I had almost forgotten what my initial inquiry was. How do meditators in the Mahasi and Goenka tradition "abandon" the hindrances?


What is the nature of the hindrances?

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote: My basis for such a claim as "The Mahasi Sayadaw method is mind numbing" is personal experience.

Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

Metta
Mike


Have you worked with an actual, trained Mahasi Sayadaw technique teacher? So, what was his/her answer to this question?


Hi

The Satipatthana in no way supports modern techniques. The other suttas you quoted are a bit like putting the cart before the horse. the Buddha was talking to highly developed individuals. Using such a technique from the beginning like I mentioned before is like taking the result as the path. Could you provide evidence in the suttas of momentary concentration? Do you agree or dis-agree that right concentration is jhana? . You seem to agree with the definition of mindfulness, I gave from the suttas. How is this definition similar to the Mahasi technique? Where is such a practice of noting mentioned? How can bare awareness magically transform into wisdom?
:focus: I dont know what you mean by "What is the nature of the hindrances?" un-wholesome/impermanent/causally arisen? how does the Mahasi meditation centres teach "abandoning the hindrances" is it just noting them?
BTW This is a discussion Smile :smile:
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Brizzy » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:28 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Brizzy wrote: I had almost forgotten what my initial inquiry was. How do meditators in the Mahasi and Goenka tradition "abandon" the hindrances?

As I said before, as far as I know, the same as anyone else.

I'm not averse to having my assumptions challenged. However, you asked this question and I gave several links to U Pandita's book and as far as I can see the antidodes to the hindrences that he describes there are just the usual ones given in the Suttas and Commentary. Here is a summary of the Jhana factors that overcome particular hindrences:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... Hindrances
Hindrances and Antidotes
Aspects of the concentrated mind have the capacity to remedy problematic mental states. Here are the factors of the first jhāna, or state of concentration, paired with the hindrance each overcomes:

Jhāna factor: Overcomes
vitakka, aiming: thīna middha, sloth and torpor
vicāra, rubbing: vicikicchā, skeptical doubt
pīti, delight: vyāpāda, aversion
sukha, happiness: uddhaccakukkuca, restelessness
ekaggatā, one-pointedness: kāmacchanda, sense desire

Unless you point to something specific in some documented instructions that contradicts the Suttas, there seems to be nothing much to discuss on this particular topic.


Mike


Hi
With respect you have given the commentarial view on overcoming the hindrances. The definitions given for mindfulness/investigation and especially effort are totally different from their sutta definitions. e.g Right Effort is not defined in the suttas as "Enduring patience in the face of suffering and difficulty". I think the link you have given summarises some of the discepancies between suttas and commentary.
:smile:
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Jechbi » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:20 pm

Hello Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:BTW This is a discussion Smile :smile:

Good reminder.

btw, I think you misunderstood me earlier, based on this response:
Brizzy wrote:The idea of "the guru is always right" is a dangerous one to hold.
I don't hold that idea, and I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't question teachers. I was trying to point out that if you look strictly to the suttas, you don't find examples of people challenging teachers the way you are doing here in this thread. That doesn't mean you should never do it! But if you insist that everyone should adopt your personal sutta-validation technique to meditation practice, then it seems to me that if you want to be consistent, you should adopt the same sutta-validation technique to your Dhamma-discussion practice. I don't find specific, concrete sutta support for your discussion technique. That doesn't mean it's the wrong approach.

Get it?

The point it that you're trying to substitute the suttas for personal instruction, but personal instruction is a tradition (within this tradition) that dates back to the days of the Buddha. Have you considered the possibility that for other people, these practice techniques involve different kamma than the kamma that you yourself brought to the techniques?

I'd still like to know your answer to this question:
mikenz66 wrote:Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

:thanks:
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:10 pm

Brizzy wrote:The Satipatthana in no way supports modern techniques.

So you claim, but you do not support your claim in anyway.

The other suttas you quoted are a bit like putting the cart before the horse. the Buddha was talking to highly developed individuals. Using such a technique from the beginning like I mentioned before is like taking the result as the path.

So you claim, but the reality seems to be a bit different.

Could you provide evidence in the suttas of momentary concentration?

You seem stuck on this. Momentary concentration is nothing more than the ability to maintain a high degree of concentrated, non-distracted awareness of whatever dhammas comes into awareness: in the seen, just the seen, etc, as they naturally rise and fall.

Do you agree or dis-agree that right concentration is jhana?
How do you define jhana?

You seem to agree with the definition of mindfulness, I gave from the suttas. How is this definition similar to the Mahasi technique?
First, you need to tell us how it is different, given that you are the one opening with this claim. And what do you mean by mindfulness?

Where is such a practice of noting mentioned? How can bare awareness magically transform into wisdom?
Noting is nothing more than a technique for developing a strong level of concentration and awareness, in the seen, just the seen, etc. Who says bare awareness, in the seen just the seen, etc, “magically” transforms into wisdom? Did Bahiya magically attain awakening?

I dont know what you mean by "What is the nature of the hindrances?" un-wholesome/impermanent/causally arisen?
Anicca, dukkha, anatta. Is that not what we are supposed to see. But the learned and noble disciple does no longer attach himself, cling firmly, adhere and incline to the thoughts: 'I have an attaa,' and he knows: 'Merely dukkha that arises, merely dukkha that vanishes.' SN II 17 SN III 135. The “knowing” is not a conceptual knowledge, but one direct apprehension of seeing the rise and fall of conditioned dhammas.

how does the Mahasi meditation centres teach "abandoning the hindrances" is it just noting them?
Have you actually done this practice that you are criticizing with a trained Mahasi Sayadaw teacher?

Again:

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote: My basis for such a claim as "The Mahasi Sayadaw method is mind numbing" is personal experience.

Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

Metta
Mike


Have you worked with an actual, trained Mahasi Sayadaw technique teacher? So, what was his/her answer to this question?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:07 pm

Brizzy wrote:With respect you have given the commentarial view on overcoming the hindrances. The definitions given for mindfulness/investigation and especially effort are totally different from their sutta definitions. e.g Right Effort is not defined in the suttas as "Enduring patience in the face of suffering and difficulty". I think the link you have given summarises some of the discepancies between suttas and commentary.

Thank you for the clarification. So your argument is with the Ancient Commentaries, not the "Modern Methods". Nevertheless, the Jhana factors are certainly praised in the Suttas.
Brizzy wrote:The Satipatthana in no way supports modern techniques.

It might be interesting for you to elaborate on this point, since it certainly resonates with the instructions that I have had from various teachers, including some from the Ajahn Chah tradition, who, like you, are not particularly fond of the Commentaries.

Let's look at a common description of the "gradual path". This is from MN107
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html
Vigilance

"As soon, brahman, as a monk is moderate in eating, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, dwell intent on vigilance; during the day while pacing up and down, while sitting down, cleanse the mind of obstructive mental states; during the middle watch of the night, lie down on the right side in the lion posture, foot resting on foot, mindful, clearly conscious, reflecting on the thought of getting up again; during the last watch of the night, when you have arisen, while pacing up and down, while sitting down, cleanse the mind of obstructive mental states.'

Mindfulness and clear consciousness

"As soon, brahman, as a monk is intent on vigilance, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, be possessed of mindfulness and clear consciousness, acting with clear consciousness whether you are approaching or departing, acting with clear consciousness whether you are looking ahead or looking round, acting with clear consciousness whether you are bending in or stretching out [the arms], acting with clear consciousness whether you are carrying the outer cloak, the bowl or robe, acting with clear consciousness whether you are eating, drinking, munching, savoring, acting with clear consciousness whether you are obeying the calls of nature, acting with clear consciousness whether you are walking, standing, sitting, asleep, awake, talking or being silent.'

Overcoming of the five hindrances

"As soon, brahman, as he is possessed of mindfulness and clear consciousness, the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a glen, a hill cave, a cemetery, a woodland grove, in the open, or on a heap of straw.' On returning from alms-gathering after the meal, the monk sits down crosslegged, holding the back erect, having made mindfulness rise up in front of him. He, getting rid of covetousness for the world, dwells with a mind devoid of covetousness, he cleanses the mind of covetousness. Getting rid of the taint of ill-will, he dwells benevolent in mind; compassionate and merciful towards all creatures and beings, he cleanses the mind of ill-will. Getting rid of sloth and torpor, he dwells without sloth or torpor; perceiving the light, mindful and clearly conscious he cleanses the mind of sloth and torpor. Getting rid of restlessness and worry, he dwells calmly; the mind inward tranquil, he cleanses the mind of restlessness and worry. Getting rid of doubt, he dwells doubt-crossed; unperplexed as to the states that are skilled [kusala], he cleanses his mind of doubt.

I presume you approve of this. Though, of course, the Tathagata is describing a monk, this is a fair description of "modern" meditation retreat.

Metta
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Brizzy » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:22 pm

Jechbi wrote:Hello Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote:BTW This is a discussion Smile :smile:

Good reminder.

btw, I think you misunderstood me earlier, based on this response:
Brizzy wrote:The idea of "the guru is always right" is a dangerous one to hold.
I don't hold that idea, and I wasn't trying to say that you shouldn't question teachers. I was trying to point out that if you look strictly to the suttas, you don't find examples of people challenging teachers the way you are doing here in this thread. That doesn't mean you should never do it! But if you insist that everyone should adopt your personal sutta-validation technique to meditation practice, then it seems to me that if you want to be consistent, you should adopt the same sutta-validation technique to your Dhamma-discussion practice. I don't find specific, concrete sutta support for your discussion technique. That doesn't mean it's the wrong approach.

Get it?

The point it that you're trying to substitute the suttas for personal instruction, but personal instruction is a tradition (within this tradition) that dates back to the days of the Buddha. Have you considered the possibility that for other people, these practice techniques involve different kamma than the kamma that you yourself brought to the techniques?

I'd still like to know your answer to this question:
mikenz66 wrote:Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

:thanks:


Hi
Good post :smile:
I recall that I told the teacher it was not for me. He was cool, in fact he was a wonderful monk.
:smile:
Brizzy
 

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Brizzy » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:55 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:The Satipatthana in no way supports modern techniques.

So you claim, but you do not support your claim in anyway.

The other suttas you quoted are a bit like putting the cart before the horse. the Buddha was talking to highly developed individuals. Using such a technique from the beginning like I mentioned before is like taking the result as the path.

So you claim, but the reality seems to be a bit different.

Could you provide evidence in the suttas of momentary concentration?

You seem stuck on this. Momentary concentration is nothing more than the ability to maintain a high degree of concentrated, non-distracted awareness of whatever dhammas comes into awareness: in the seen, just the seen, etc, as they naturally rise and fall.

Do you agree or dis-agree that right concentration is jhana?
How do you define jhana?

You seem to agree with the definition of mindfulness, I gave from the suttas. How is this definition similar to the Mahasi technique?
First, you need to tell us how it is different, given that you are the one opening with this claim. And what do you mean by mindfulness?

Where is such a practice of noting mentioned? How can bare awareness magically transform into wisdom?
Noting is nothing more than a technique for developing a strong level of concentration and awareness, in the seen, just the seen, etc. Who says bare awareness, in the seen just the seen, etc, “magically” transforms into wisdom? Did Bahiya magically attain awakening?

I dont know what you mean by "What is the nature of the hindrances?" un-wholesome/impermanent/causally arisen?
Anicca, dukkha, anatta. Is that not what we are supposed to see. But the learned and noble disciple does no longer attach himself, cling firmly, adhere and incline to the thoughts: 'I have an attaa,' and he knows: 'Merely dukkha that arises, merely dukkha that vanishes.' SN II 17 SN III 135. The “knowing” is not a conceptual knowledge, but one direct apprehension of seeing the rise and fall of conditioned dhammas.

how does the Mahasi meditation centres teach "abandoning the hindrances" is it just noting them?
Have you actually done this practice that you are criticizing with a trained Mahasi Sayadaw teacher?

Again:

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Brizzy,
Brizzy wrote: My basis for such a claim as "The Mahasi Sayadaw method is mind numbing" is personal experience.

Did you discuss this "mind numbing" experience with your teacher?

Metta
Mike


Have you worked with an actual, trained Mahasi Sayadaw technique teacher? So, what was his/her answer to this question?


Hi
As far as the teacher... yes he was trained and respected. In fact the monk in question is a highly virtuous and compassionate bhikkhu, who has been immeasurably beneficial to me and my family. However, I would not like to name the monk as this would be unseemly and appear as if I was critisizing a monk, which I am careful to avoid. This does not mean I cannot take issue with a technique that is made prevalent with laypeople. I cannot really see that his name, is something you need to know. Most of my experience within the vipassana technique has been with the "Goenka" method. Happy?

Ok so.... How do you understand the abandoning of the hindrances is undertaken?

You say I am "stuck" on momentary concentration! :smile: Surely it is the basis for the technique, isnt it? In the Mahasi tradition, this idea of momentary concentration replaces jhana (Right Concentration) in the eightfold path. Using "Mikes" link, Right Effort gets redefined as patience/endurance, Investigation as intuition and mindfulness as bare attention. The suttas say something completely different. However as it is late, I will post what the suttas say about Right Effort/Concentration/Investigation and mindfulness in a few days.
As regards other discrepancies......sixteen insight knowledges/super slow movements/noting.....they just arent in the suttas.

You ask how do I define jhana. Read the suttas, they define them countless times.

:smile:
Brizzy
 

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:24 pm

Brizzy wrote:As far as the teacher... yes he was trained and respected. In fact the monk in question is a highly virtuous and compassionate bhikkhu, who has been immeasurably beneficial to me and my family. However, I would not like to name the monk as this would be unseemly and appear as if I was critisizing a monk, which I am careful to avoid. This does not mean I cannot take issue with a technique that is made prevalent with laypeople. I cannot really see that his name, is something you need to know. Most of my experience within the vipassana technique has been with the "Goenka" method. Happy?


No one asked for the name of your teacher. We wondering if you had a teacher and if you put him the question of the supposed “mind-numbing” you claimed to have experienced and what his response to you was. And, as usual, you really do not address the question put to you.

Ok so.... How do you understand the abandoning of the hindrances is undertaken?


Already answered.

You say I am "stuck" on momentary concentration! Surely it is the basis for the technique, isnt it? In the Mahasi tradition, this idea of momentary concentration replaces jhana (Right Concentration) in the eightfold path.


I haven’t a clue as to what you mean by jhana. And likely it does not.

You ask how do I define jhana. Read the suttas, they define them countless times.


But that, as usual, does not tell us anything about how you understand what jhana means.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:02 pm

Brizzy wrote:The Satipatthana in no way supports modern techniques.


Hi Brizzy
are you going to explan this comment? it seams very relevant to the abandoning of hinderances.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:25 pm

Brizzy wrote:As far as the teacher... yes he was trained and respected. In fact the monk in question is a highly virtuous and compassionate bhikkhu, who has been immeasurably beneficial to me and my family. However, I would not like to name the monk as this would be unseemly and appear as if I was critisizing a monk, which I am careful to avoid. This does not mean I cannot take issue with a technique that is made prevalent with laypeople. I cannot really see that his name, is something you need to know. Most of my experience within the vipassana technique has been with the "Goenka" method. Happy?

OK, so you've been on some Goenka retreats and presumably some retreats using the Mahasi method. Why then do you keep asking this?
Brizzy wrote:Ok so.... How do you understand the abandoning of the hindrances is undertaken?

For Mahasi I gave you some references to U Pandita's book. You can read a lot of other stuff on http://aimwell.org/ and http://buddhanet.net/insight.htm if you are interested.
There is plenty of Goenka stuff out there as well, but I've only done one Goenka retreat, so I have not paid so much attention to it. I prefer the Mahasi approach because I've had access to good local (monastic) teachers and for me it integrates more naturally into everyday activities and with teachings from other teachers I have met or listened to (such as lay "insight" teachers, some of the students of Ajahn Chah, such as Ajahn Tiradhammo, etc...).

Essentially this discussion seems to boil down to:
"The approach Mahasi and Goenka teach isn't in the Suttas".
To which we reply:
"Well, some of us think that the Commentaries are actually the word of enlightened disciples of the Buddha, so we take them seriously. However, if you want a Sutta basis, it's rather obvious that Goenka and Mahasi just emphasise particular parts of the Satipatthana Sutta".

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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Brizzy » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:24 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:As far as the teacher... yes he was trained and respected. In fact the monk in question is a highly virtuous and compassionate bhikkhu, who has been immeasurably beneficial to me and my family. However, I would not like to name the monk as this would be unseemly and appear as if I was critisizing a monk, which I am careful to avoid. This does not mean I cannot take issue with a technique that is made prevalent with laypeople. I cannot really see that his name, is something you need to know. Most of my experience within the vipassana technique has been with the "Goenka" method. Happy?


No one asked for the name of your teacher. We wondering if you had a teacher and if you put him the question of the supposed “mind-numbing” you claimed to have experienced and what his response to you was. And, as usual, you really do not address the question put to you.

Ok so.... How do you understand the abandoning of the hindrances is undertaken?


Already answered.

You say I am "stuck" on momentary concentration! Surely it is the basis for the technique, isnt it? In the Mahasi tradition, this idea of momentary concentration replaces jhana (Right Concentration) in the eightfold path.


I haven’t a clue as to what you mean by jhana. And likely it does not.

You ask how do I define jhana. Read the suttas, they define them countless times.


But that, as usual, does not tell us anything about how you understand what jhana means.


Hi
You say you have answered my question on abandoning the hindrances. Where?
It seems you do not understand the importance of "momentary concentration" in your own technique. Without it, none of it holds together, yet as I mentioned this idea of "momentary concentation" cannot be found in the suttas.
:smile:
Brizzy
 

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Brizzy » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:31 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Brizzy wrote:As far as the teacher... yes he was trained and respected. In fact the monk in question is a highly virtuous and compassionate bhikkhu, who has been immeasurably beneficial to me and my family. However, I would not like to name the monk as this would be unseemly and appear as if I was critisizing a monk, which I am careful to avoid. This does not mean I cannot take issue with a technique that is made prevalent with laypeople. I cannot really see that his name, is something you need to know. Most of my experience within the vipassana technique has been with the "Goenka" method. Happy?

OK, so you've been on some Goenka retreats and presumably some retreats using the Mahasi method. Why then do you keep asking this?
Brizzy wrote:Ok so.... How do you understand the abandoning of the hindrances is undertaken?

For Mahasi I gave you some references to U Pandita's book. You can read a lot of other stuff on http://aimwell.org/ and http://buddhanet.net/insight.htm if you are interested.
There is plenty of Goenka stuff out there as well, but I've only done one Goenka retreat, so I have not paid so much attention to it. I prefer the Mahasi approach because I've had access to good local (monastic) teachers and for me it integrates more naturally into everyday activities and with teachings from other teachers I have met or listened to (such as lay "insight" teachers, some of the students of Ajahn Chah, such as Ajahn Tiradhammo, etc...).

Essentially this discussion seems to boil down to:
"The approach Mahasi and Goenka teach isn't in the Suttas".
To which we reply:
"Well, some of us think that the Commentaries are actually the word of enlightened disciples of the Buddha, so we take them seriously. However, if you want a Sutta basis, it's rather obvious that Goenka and Mahasi just emphasise particular parts of the Satipatthana Sutta".

Metta
Mike


Hi Mike

To some extent I agree with you. My worry is that the two methods mentioned, leave really important parts out and introduce parts, that are just not there. i.e. momentary concentration, noting , slow movement, fruit/path mind moments etc.
:smile:
Brizzy
 

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Brizzy » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:36 am

Manapa wrote:
Brizzy wrote:The Satipatthana in no way supports modern techniques.


Hi Brizzy
are you going to explan this comment? it seams very relevant to the abandoning of hinderances.


Hi

The Satipatthana Sutta begins from a premise of having abandoned the hindrances, which is synonymous with jhana. So the whole process of mindfulness of body occurs within the context of jhana.
:smile:
Brizzy
 

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Brizzy » Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:57 am

Hi

I said I would post my understandings.......... Remember, my personal view is that the suttas describe them perfectly already, but some people insist on me using my own words, which could lead to misunderstanding of what I actually mean/they actually mean. Bearing that in mind.....

Right Effort :-

Prevent the unwholesome that has not yet arisen in oneself.
Let go of the unwholesome that has arisen in oneself.
Bring up the wholesome that has not yet arisen in oneself.
Maintain the wholesome that has arisen in oneself.

Right Mindfulness :-

After hearing the Dhamma the meditator sits in seclusion, he recollects that Dhamma & thinks it over. ( the four frames of reference are just that, he would refer the dhamma to the foundations of mindfulness).

Right Investigation :-

Whilst dwelling mindfully the meditator examines that dhamma and makes a full investigation.

Right Concentration:-

Is the four jhanas. The suttas describe them perfectly time and time again. They are states within which the mind and body reach more and more sublime levels of peace, from within which one can discriminate with wisdom.
:smile:
Brizzy
 

Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby Ben » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:07 am

Greetings Brizzy
Could you please do us all a favour and attribute that translation or please indicate that it is a personal paraphrasing.
Thanks

Ben
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Re: Abandoning hindrances

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:22 am

Brizzy wrote:You say you have answered my question on abandoning the hindrances. Where?
It seems you do not understand the importance of "momentary concentration" in your own technique. Without it, none of it holds together, yet as I mentioned this idea of "momentary concentation" cannot be found in the suttas.


Where? Above.

As for momentary concentration, I gave a defintion of it. This is not something you experience when attending to the rise and fall of experience?

Also, you spend a lot of time not answering questions put to you, which is why, in turn, I find it very difficult to put any real time in addressing your questions. You want your questions answered, you need to do a fair amount of heavy lifting, given that you are the one who has initiated this thread.
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