Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:30 am

My understanding is that to develop proper jhana, one has to have sila established (extended precepts, including celibacy). Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:56 am

Hi Dan
My teacher contends that not only established, but perfect. Hence, it is neigh-on impossible to experience jhana in the midst of the 'dusty life of a houselholder'.
Kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:58 am

Greetings Ben,

How perfect is perfect though?

Would those who have attained the jhanas prior to the establishment of the Buddhasasana have had the same perfected sila of the Buddha?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:Would those who have attained the jhanas prior to the establishment of the Buddhasasana have had the same perfected sila of the Buddha?

There's nothing peculiarly Buddhist about Sila or clinging to sensual pleasures:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html
12. "Though certain recluses and brahmans claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging... they describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self. They do not understand one instance... therefore they describe only the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self.


Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:05 am

Hi Retro
As you may recall, I had a dilemma recently regarding an issue of sila at work (requested to participate in an event where I would be asked to serve alcohol), after speaking to my spiritual mentor, he reminded me of the formula that was mentioned on the long course I attended a few years ago. And I think this would form the basis of perfecting the silas:

Perfected in three ways. Not performing the action, not encouraging others to perform an action we would not do, nor not approving of someone else to do something we would not do.

I think those ascetics who attained to the eighth jhana before the Buddhasasana had just as perfect sila as the Buddha, but not perfected the paramitas to the same extent.

Hi AJ,
AdvaitaJ wrote:It is quite the intriguing paradox to have a goal that requires you to genuinely put aside striving for it in order to achieve it.


Quite! It was something that I had to face in the long course. Even subtle craving for jhana seemed to be a barrier.
metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:10 am

Ben wrote:Hi Dan
My teacher contends that not only established, but perfect. Hence, it is neigh-on impossible to experience jhana in the midst of the 'dusty life of a houselholder'.
Kind regards

Ben


I am guessing (and from what I recall reading) to establish jhana, one really needs 100% focus and that can't be "in the midst of the 'dusty life of a house-holder.'" Not to say that at a later stage one cannot return to household life. But it will not be the same of course.

I am speculating here, so I will stop.

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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:36 am

Absolutely. A retreat environment, preferably silent and secluded from the usual distractions of the world, and if one has a spouse, permission to go.
metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Reductor » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:19 am

When it comes to sila, I would just suggest ambition thinking. Think about how poor sila affects your mediation now: you mind finds it's way back to the offense, and either dwells with regret, or dwells with regret and a little pleasure (guilty pleasures, anyone?). If you have resolved on perfecting your sila, and are making a consistent effort in regular life, then you sila will improve for sure, leaving less to regret. In your effort to perfect sila you will find yourself scrutinizing all that you do, looking to see if it is inline or not, and if not then why not. It is by doing this that you see it's drawbacks, and by seeing drawbacks more clearly there will be less pleasure derived from those guilty pleasures. Even those thoughts and desires that normally knocked you on your ass will carry less punch, and, although it is hard, you will be able to do battle with them as they push on you.

When you sit down to meditate you might not have perfected sila, but you will have the peace of mind that comes from non-complacency. Knowing that you are putting up that fight, that you are resolved on victory, one way or another, is what I think gives mediation the real spark it needs.

Just a thought.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:37 am

Hi thereductor
There are some excellent benefits to sila, no doubt.
When we breach our sila, we create agitation in our mind and plant the seeds of particular types of citta that make it impossible to develop samadhi - let alone sammasamadhi. Samadhi is dependent on sila. You can't develop jhana without sila.
metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Jhana: could be?

Postby IanAnd » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:14 am

thereductor wrote:Now days I don't get the big body, nor the small body, sense anymore, but just a gradual awakening of the body as the mind also calms and latches onto the breath. A point comes where the breath and my attention do not separate, with the body feeling like a statue: present, relaxed, comfortable and seemingly immovable. I can move, but there seems almost no inclination in the mind to move, even when pain sets in (from sitting on a hard floor I do experience the onset of pain after a time; not sure how long into it). At that point I can rest with the breath as backdrop with very little effort. Mostly I just avoid adjusting the breath and this state will persist. If I focus in on the breath again then things start to change.

There's more, but maybe I should stop here. Mostly, does this sound like it's progressing how it should?

Hello thereductor,

Although we have never met, I've been around these Buddhist forums for quite some time. I'm also a former monastic (Western contemplative monastic, old Catholic) who left the religious order several years ago to take up a study of Buddhist meditation and the Dhamma. Also, I've been a meditator for over 29 years, the last nine of which I have practiced Theravada Buddhist meditation techniques as taught in the discourses. I have also read/contemplated most of the Nikayas in translation (Digha, Majjhima, Samyutta, and 1/10 of the Anguttara Nikayas, along with volumes in the Khuddaka Nikaya: the Itivuttaka, the Udana, and the Sutta Nipata). Over the last nine years I have been able to corroborate my meditative experience and Dhamma understanding with other highly developed Buddhist practitioners, both in person and over the internet, so I have a fairly solid background in the Dhamma and meditation practice. The bulk of my work in Buddhist meditation has taken place during a five year period of secluded practice devoted solely to the practice (i.e. no outside involvements) on private retreat (quite a luxury, I might add, if you can afford to do it). Indeed, I live in seclusion even today. Since I am not tied to any monastic vows or niceties that might prohibit my speaking about my experience, I am able to speak freely about that which I have experienced.

From your description above, it does sound as though you could be experiencing absorption. It is not so much the various sensations or images that one should necessarily go by in order to arrive at this determination as it is the unification of mental faculties on the object of meditation, just as you have described above. While there can be a variety of experiential sensations that one in absorption experiences in the beginning stages of the practice (much of which can be due to the preconceptions set up in the mind regarding whatever the meditator has read or been otherwise taught of these descriptions), the most telling is the establishment of the mind in unification on an object or subject wherein the mind is malleable, workable, imperturbable, and it will go with ease wherever the person directs it to go for knowing and seeing phenomena.

Absorption helps establish the mind in concentration (that is, it helps one to strengthen one's ability at concentration). The time one spends in samadhi assists in conditioning the mind to remain still and calm, not only during meditation, but also during moments of normal consciousness. Gradually, the mind's calm is extended more and more into one's waking conscious moments, which in turn helps strengthen concentration abilities there also.

As others here have pointed out, sila is important when establishing a Buddhist practice in meditation. This is primarily for very obvious reasons: a mind that is restless or worried about one's erstwhile immoral or unethical worldly behavior is not a calm mind ready to experience even more stillness. A guilty or troubled conscience can be a restless mind indeed. You seem to have a decent understanding of this as your description of the level of sila necessary for successful meditation would qualify you ("When you sit down to meditate you might not have perfected sila, but you will have the peace of mind that comes from non-complacency.")

If you have any further questions and you feel comfortable about asking them, I'm open to them.

In peace,
Ian
Last edited by IanAnd on Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby puthujjana » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:How perfect is perfect though?


I think perfect sila is equal to the abandoning of the five hindrances, i.e. at least access concentration.
So, in my opinion, sila is perfected just before you reach jhana (= perfect samadhi). That means, that sila and samadhi go hand-in-hand until both are perfected.

But that's just my opinion...

with metta
:anjali:
"Once you understand anatta, then the burden of life is gone. You’ll be at peace with the world. When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness and we can truly be happy."
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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:05 am

Hi Putthujjana
puthujjana wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:How perfect is perfect though?


I think perfect sila is equal to the abandoning of the five hindrances, i.e. at least access concentration.
So, in my opinion, sila is perfected just before you reach jhana (= perfect samadhi). That means, that sila and samadhi go hand-in-hand until both are perfected.

But that's just my opinion...

with metta
:anjali:

I'm not sure that I would agree with this as the hindrances are mental phenomena that hinder meditation. Doubt may enter and dominate a mind but it does not impinge on one's ability to maintain sila. Similarly, lust, anger, restlessness can all enter and dominate a mind to the point of making samatha impossible without one actually engaging in activity or encouraging others or approving of others doing certain kammically retrograde behaviours.
Kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:16 am

Greetings Ben,

I must admit, like puthujjana, I was also thinking of a certain mental aspect behind the "perfect sila" too.

By way of extreme example simply to make a point... a paraplegic might abide by the five precepts, but it's not exactly perfect sila if they're desperately wishing that they were out for a night of beer and hookers.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:35 am

Hi Retro
Yes, indeed. fact, the Vissudhimagga mentions something similar about someone who is engaging in lustful thoughts while holding the gaze of a woman. Or, even maintaining sila with a view that by doing so one is going to acquire some other-worldly existence as a deity. Having said that, I contend that it is a different kettle of fish than a hindrance which appears to be the cetasikas which block the development of samadhi while one is in meditation.
Cheers

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby puthujjana » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:18 am

Ben wrote:I'm not sure that I would agree with this as the hindrances are mental phenomena that hinder meditation. Doubt may enter and dominate a mind but it does not impinge on one's ability to maintain sila. Similarly, lust, anger, restlessness can all enter and dominate a mind to the point of making samatha impossible without one actually engaging in activity or encouraging others or approving of others doing certain kammically retrograde behaviours.

Hej Ben,

thank you very much for your answer.

(I don't know if I'm able to write down my thoughts in English, but I'll give it a try...)


I understand your point, that a mind dominated by the hindrances doesn't necessary affect one's bodily and verbal actions.
But, as I understand it, sila is threefold (mental, verbal, bodily) with the mind as forerunner:

Nyanatiloka wrote:sīla
'morality', 'virtue', is a mode of mind and volition (cetana) manifested in speech or bodily action (s. karma).

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/siila.htm

So, a mind dominated by sensual desire, ill will, sloth + torpor, restlessness and doubt will give rise to unwholesome bodily and verbally actions, unless one has a good level of mindfulness and is well trained in right effort.
On the other hand, a mind dominated by their opposites will very likely give rise to wholesome actions.

Besides, if we look at it the other way round: Is unwholsome behaviour possible when the five hindrances are overcome?

Does a mind afflicted by the hindrances only hinder meditation or does it also hinder pure sila?

Again, that's just my opinion :smile:
And I'm not sure if I'm correct with that.

with metta
:anjali:
"Once you understand anatta, then the burden of life is gone. You’ll be at peace with the world. When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness and we can truly be happy."
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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby catmoon » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:53 pm

I am worried the people here are putting jhana up on some inaccessible pedestal.

I assert that it is accessible, at least the first few jhanas, and accessible to the average practioner as well.

If it was as difficult as some make out, why would Buddha teach it?

Now it may be that the higher jhanas require progressively better sila, but anyone who has ever had the shivery piloerection thing happen while meditating is closing in on the first jhana.

One thing that IS required to attain jhana, and I think no one will argue with this, is the audacity to try.
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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Sudarsha » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:08 pm

I have noted what I consider a profound and positive change in my meditation since joining this discussion forum. I do not have any idea how to articulate this beyond saying that, however. One of the advantages of having a teacher/sangha is discussion, something that has been in omission from my daily life until now. I think that, here, I have, for the first time, described my own practise more than at any time in recent memory.

I am much appreciative to all of you and especially to thereductor for this discussion topic.
Sudarsha
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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby IanAnd » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:57 pm

catmoon wrote:I am worried the people here are putting jhana up on some inaccessible pedestal.

I assert that it is accessible, at least the first few jhanas, and accessible to the average practitioner as well.

If it was as difficult as some make out, why would Buddha teach it?

Yes, indeed. I agree, fully. The problem comes when people who are aspiring to attain it get conflicting information about it. They don't know who to trust. But, if one can use his intuition in order to get an idea of what absorption is about, as when one becomes absorbed in reading a book or watching some event in nature where the mind unifies quite naturally on the object of observation, then using those kinds of experiential examples, one can come to be familiar with what absorption is all about. What is important to understand is that absorption is not something mysterious or even foreign to most people's experience. We're just not always used to thinking about it in this way. Once you have an example from your own experience to work with, it becomes easier to recognize.

In terms of a meditative absorption, the mind can become very still and quiet. Discursive thought slows to a standstill. What most people don't realize is that thought can still take place within absorption, otherwise how could someone who becomes absorbed in reading a book continue to read while at the same time being absorbed while reading?

catmoon wrote:Now it may be that the higher jhanas require progressively better sila, . . .

Not necessarily. Sila is only important in that it doesn't create a proliferation of unwholesome monkey mind discursive thinking that can distract from obtaining absorption. Although when I think about it, if one is skilful with whatever comes up, one can use that discursive thinking as a subject of observation in what the Mahasi method terms a "vipassana jhana."

But, for someone who is just learning about absorption — what it is, how to identify it and what not — then it is probably best not to be distracted by periphery phenomena so that one can experience it as fully as possible in order to become familiar with what they are endeavoring to achieve.

catmoon wrote:One thing that IS required to attain jhana, and I think no one will argue with this, is the audacity to try.

Well, yes, I know what you're talking about. But in actuality no audacity is required at all. With the right technique, absorption can be brought on automatically. You don't even have to be trying to get there. The question then becomes: will you recognize it when it occurs? Or will it just go over your head.
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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:50 am

Sudarsha wrote:I have noted what I consider a profound and positive change in my meditation since joining this discussion forum. I do not have any idea how to articulate this beyond saying that, however. One of the advantages of having a teacher/sangha is discussion, something that has been in omission from my daily life until now. I think that, here, I have, for the first time, described my own practise more than at any time in recent memory.

I am much appreciative to all of you and especially to thereductor for this discussion topic.


Equally, I am very appreciative of your presence as well. I am sure your presence here is a great benefit to all those who are seeking inspiration and clarification on the path.
metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Jhana: yes, no, neither, could be? Hmm?

Postby AdvaitaJ » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:16 am

Sudarsha wrote:I have noted what I consider a profound and positive change in my meditation since joining this discussion forum. I do not have any idea how to articulate this beyond saying that, however. One of the advantages of having a teacher/sangha is discussion, something that has been in omission from my daily life until now. I think that, here, I have, for the first time, described my own practise more than at any time in recent memory.

I am much appreciative to all of you and especially to thereductor for this discussion topic.
Sadhu!

AdvaitaJ
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