MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

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MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:45 am

Greetings,

This is just a new concept, so let's see how it evolves and how structured we want to make it... so no lead-off questions, just read and discuss for now. Study Group "Guidelines" will be developed shortly.

:reading:

MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

This is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation. Feel free to use this or another translation, particularly as a comparative analysis of different translations may be worthwhile in itself.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:25 am

Hi all

Here's Venerable Bodhi's lecture:

M0001_MN-026: 2003.01.14
MN 26: Ariyapariyesanā Sutta — The Noble Search
(through paragraph 18)

http://www.bodhimonastery.net/courses/M ... MN-026.mp3

Kind regards

Ben
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:33 am

i have a few questions...
Alara Kalama taught the Buddha the dimension of nothingness
and Uddaka Ramaputta taught the Buddha the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception

are these jhanas?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:36 am

Yes and no. They are sometimes considered or counted as the '7th' and '8th' jhanas, but are actually part of the formless realms. The jhanas are the first four material states and to follow them are the four formless states or realms and then 'cessation.'
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:56 am

Pressing out Pure Honey, by Sharda Rogell
PDF here: http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/publications.html

26 Ariyapariyesanā Sutta The Noble Search

SUMMARY

The Buddha gives the bhikkhus a long account of his own quest for
enlightenment from the time of his life in the palace through to his transmission
of the Dharma to his first five disciples.

NOTES (Nanamoli/Bodhi Paragraphs)
An important PASSAGE [5-12] where the Buddha describes the search by one
who is subject to birth, aging, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilements, for
objects of attachment (examples are listed in the text) that are subject to the
same conditions. He is essentially saying, if I am subject to birth, aging, sickness
and death, why should I seek that which is the same? He names this the ignoble
search. Then he describes the noble search, which seeks the unborn, the
unaging, the unailing, the deathless, the sorrowless, the undefiled supreme
security from bondage, Nibbāna. Later, he equates Nibbāna with the stilling of
all formations, the relinquishment of all attachments, and the destruction of
craving [19].

In [19] the Buddha muses over why he thinks no one will understand the
profundity of the Dharma. In [20] is Brahmā Sahampati’s passionate plea to the
Buddha to teach rather than remain silent. [Ed: Note that Uruvelā is the ancient
name for Bodh Gaya, the place where the Buddha was enlightened.]

The last section on the eight attainments [3442]
is repeated in MN25.

[Ed: At this point in the text, we start to see three primary themes making
repeated appearances: the dangers of sensual pleasures, the danger of things
because they are subject to impermanence (birth and death), and the place of
the eight attainments.]

PRACTICE
1. Reflect on the things you tend to search for in your life. How many of them
would count as objects of an ignoble search? How many would be noble?
Reflect on how the noble search turns us away from the world and toward the
spiritual.
2. Reflect on what your life would be like now had the Buddha
remained silent and Buddhadharma had not been born into this world. If
gratitude arises, allow it to expand throughout your whole body.
Last edited by mikenz66 on Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:14 am

Another talk on this Sutta:

Bhante Vimalaramsi
http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/mn-1.htm

Metta
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby Will » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:24 am

There is also Bhikkhu Bodhi's own translation in his published book.
Last edited by Will on Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:25 am

This is an interesting little footnote:
The Burmese, Sri Lankan, and PTS editions of the Canon exclude gold and silver from the list of objects subject to illness, death, and sorrow, apparently on the grounds that they themselves do not grow ill, die, or feel sorrow. The Thai edition of the Canon includes gold and silver in the list of objects subject to illness, death, and sorrow in the sense that any happiness based on them is subject to change because of one's own illness, death, and sorrow.


And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth.
:?:
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:21 am

Greetings Jechbi, all,

Interesting footnote indeed. Here is the text it is referring to.

"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.


Gold and Silver aren't subject to birth, conventionally understood, though they are subject to aniccata. They do come together and later dissipate.

I'm therefore inclined to think that the list is referring to things and people, subject to aniccata which can be objects of craving, which seems to make sense given they are referred to as "acquisitions".

Aniccata infiltrates subject and object in conjunction with craving (being "tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them"), hence there is the "aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement" inherent in ignoble searches.

Well that's my take... anyone agree, disagree etc.?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:31 pm

Hi Retro

Bhikkhu Bodhi explains on the subject of 'acquisitions' and on gold and silver

299: Upadhi: The root meaning is foundation, basis, ground (PED). In commentaries various kinds of upadhi are enumerated, among them the five aggregates, objects of sensual pleasure, defilements and kamma. Nanamoli renders the term consistently throughout as "essentials of existence" wich often obscures its clear contextual meaning. I have tried to capture the several connotations of the word by rendering it "acquisitions" where its objective meaning is prominent (as it is here) abd as "acquisition" where it subjective meaning is prominent. At MN26.19 Nibbana is called the relinquishing of all acquisitions" (sabb'upadipatinissagga), with both meanings intended.

300: Gold and silver are excluded from the things subject to sickness, death, and sorrow, but they are subject to defilement, according to MA, because they can be alloyed with other metals of lesser worth

-- Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Nanamoli, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: a translation of the Majjhima Nikaya

Kind regards

Ben
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby Will » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:40 pm

Ben wrote:Hi Retro

Bhikkhu Bodhi explains on the subject of 'acquisitions' and on gold and silver

299: Upadhi: The root meaning is foundation, basis, ground (PED). In commentaries various kinds of upadhi are enumerated, among them the five aggregates, objects of sensual pleasure, defilements and kamma. Nanamoli renders the term consistently throughout as "essentials of existence" wich often obscures its clear contextual meaning. I have tried to capture the several connotations of the word by rendering it "acquisitions" where its objective meaning is prominent (as it is here) abd as "acquisition" where it subjective meaning is prominent. At MN26.19 Nibbana is called the relinquishing of all acquisitions" (sabb'upadipatinissagga), with both meanings intended.

300: Gold and silver are excluded from the things subject to sickness, death, and sorrow, but they are subject to defilement, according to MA, because they can be alloyed with other metals of lesser worth

-- Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Nanamoli, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: a translation of the Majjhima Nikaya

Kind regards

Ben


Did you type this out from the book Ben, or is it from some document that can be shared online?
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:33 pm

My take on it is that gold and silver etc are subject to birth, aging and death because attachment to them can bring this about?
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby Will » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:01 pm

The Sister renders this paragraph (12 in BB's trans.) -
Bhikkhus, what is the noble search. Here a certain one subject to birth, knowing its dangers searches the not decaying noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to decay, knowing the dangers of decay searches the not decaying noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to illness, knowing the dangers of illness searches the non-ailing noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to death, knowing the dangers of death searches the deathless noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to grief, knowing the dangers of grief, searches the non-grieving noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to defiling, knowing its dangers searches the non-defiled noble end of the yoke extinction. Bhikkhus, this is the noble search.


I wonder about "noble end of the yoke extinction." Bhante Bodhi gives - "supreme security from bondage, Nibbana." The English "noble end" as the same as "supreme security" does not compute - but translation is an art more than a science, I suppose.

Pondering on these descriptions of Nibbana will be helpful in clarifying what it is.
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:23 pm

Perhaps it would be interesting to consider the Teaching part of the Sutta.

His first attempts at interacting with others (Upaka the Ajivaka) was rather unsuccessful, perhaps because it was rather "self focussed":
All-vanquishing,
all-knowing am I ...

The first interaction with the Five was also rather argumentative.

This is rather different from later times, where his approach was often much more subtle.

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby Dhammanando » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:39 pm

Hi Will,

Will wrote:I wonder about "noble end of the yoke extinction." Bhante Bodhi gives - "supreme security from bondage, Nibbana."


That's a satisfactory rendering of "anuttaraṃ yogakkhemaṃ nibbānaṃ."

The English "noble end" as the same as "supreme security" does not compute - but translation is an art more than a science, I suppose.


As I mentioned in another thread, one would be well-advised not to rely on Sister Uppalavannā's translations. She simply hasn't a clue.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:17 pm

Greetings Ben,

300: Gold and silver are excluded from the things subject to sickness, death, and sorrow, but they are subject to defilement, according to MA, because they can be alloyed with other metals of lesser worth

-- Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Nanamoli, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: a translation of the Majjhima Nikaya


I must say that this particular explanation does seem like a case of missing the forest for the trees. As I see it, the section about acquisitions is for the purpose of distinguishing between a noble search and an ignoble search, as an introduction to the Buddha's pursuit of enlightenment. To think that the Buddha would begin a Dhamma talk on himself by arbitrarily indicating that gold can be alloyed with other metals of lesser worth, seems strange to say the least.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Hi Retro

Acquisitions in the sense that they are 'requisites for existence', that which would bind one to future existence. Sure.
As for gold and silver - The note 300 comes at the end of the paragraph 8:
And what may be said to be subject to sickness? Wife and children are subject to sickness, men and women slaves, goats and sheep, fowl and pigs, elephants, cattle, horses and mares are subject to sickness. These acquisitions are subject to sickness, and one who is tied to these things, infatuated with them, and utterly committed to them, being himself subject to sickness, seeks what is also subject to sickness


Gold and silver are not mentioned until paragraph 11 which is on defilement and is, for all intents and purposes, identical with the previous paragraphs. Venerable Bodhi's note then, explains why gold and silver were mentioned here yet not mentioned elsewhere. Gold and silver can be 'defiled' or alloyed with other metals. So, they are in this section and not the others as they are not living beings.
What the Buddha is doing is going through and enumerating all the things that constitute material security, those possessions which denote material wealth, the mundane 'pursuit of happiness' which is the 'ignoble search'. And it is an ignoble search because these possessions are subject to birth, aging, sickness, death, defilement. Also remember, that the Buddha was talking from his own viewpoint of his own search that led to his enlightenment.
Cheers

Ben
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:16 pm

Greetings Ben,

OK, but don't forget what Jechbi quoted above...

The Burmese, Sri Lankan, and PTS editions of the Canon exclude gold and silver from the list of objects subject to illness, death, and sorrow, apparently on the grounds that they themselves do not grow ill, die, or feel sorrow. The Thai edition of the Canon includes gold and silver in the list of objects subject to illness, death, and sorrow in the sense that any happiness based on them is subject to change because of one's own illness, death, and sorrow.


It seems odd that the lists should be changed part way through the suttas as to me this seems inconsistent with how suttas generally read. Whether it's a valid fear or not, I'm a little concerned that perhaps some editions of the canon might have actually dropped the words from the sutta because of the commentary exposition, and that in light of the commentarial exposition, the words in the sutta no longer made sense.

Hopefully I'm wrong of course.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:19 pm

Thanks for that, I didn't see Jechi's note above.

I don't know. Perhaps someone who is familiar with the textual history of the Tipitaka can explain.
Metta

Ben
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- Heraclitus


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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:It seems odd that the lists should be changed part way through the suttas as to me this seems inconsistent with how suttas generally read.

I have encountered a number of suttas in which there is a subtle difference in the repetition. One that comes to mind is the Advice to Rahula. The bit about confessing is absent from misdeeds of thought.
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