MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

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retrofuturist
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MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

This is just a new concept, so let's see how it evolves and how structured we want to make it... so no lead-off questions, just read and discuss for now. Study Group "Guidelines" will be developed shortly.

:reading:

MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation. Feel free to use this or another translation, particularly as a comparative analysis of different translations may be worthwhile in itself.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Ben »

Hi all

Here's Venerable Bodhi's lecture:

M0001_MN-026: 2003.01.14
MN 26: Ariyapariyesanā Sutta — The Noble Search
(through paragraph 18)

http://www.bodhimonastery.net/courses/M ... MN-026.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by jcsuperstar »

i have a few questions...
Alara Kalama taught the Buddha the dimension of nothingness
and Uddaka Ramaputta taught the Buddha the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception

are these jhanas?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by DNS »

Yes and no. They are sometimes considered or counted as the '7th' and '8th' jhanas, but are actually part of the formless realms. The jhanas are the first four material states and to follow them are the four formless states or realms and then 'cessation.'
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

Pressing out Pure Honey, by Sharda Rogell
PDF here: http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/publications.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

26 Ariyapariyesanā Sutta The Noble Search

SUMMARY

The Buddha gives the bhikkhus a long account of his own quest for
enlightenment from the time of his life in the palace through to his transmission
of the Dharma to his first five disciples.

NOTES (Nanamoli/Bodhi Paragraphs)
An important PASSAGE [5-12] where the Buddha describes the search by one
who is subject to birth, aging, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilements, for
objects of attachment (examples are listed in the text) that are subject to the
same conditions. He is essentially saying, if I am subject to birth, aging, sickness
and death, why should I seek that which is the same? He names this the ignoble
search. Then he describes the noble search, which seeks the unborn, the
unaging, the unailing, the deathless, the sorrowless, the undefiled supreme
security from bondage, Nibbāna. Later, he equates Nibbāna with the stilling of
all formations, the relinquishment of all attachments, and the destruction of
craving [19].

In [19] the Buddha muses over why he thinks no one will understand the
profundity of the Dharma. In [20] is Brahmā Sahampati’s passionate plea to the
Buddha to teach rather than remain silent. [Ed: Note that Uruvelā is the ancient
name for Bodh Gaya, the place where the Buddha was enlightened.]

The last section on the eight attainments [3442]
is repeated in MN25.

[Ed: At this point in the text, we start to see three primary themes making
repeated appearances: the dangers of sensual pleasures, the danger of things
because they are subject to impermanence (birth and death), and the place of
the eight attainments.]

PRACTICE
1. Reflect on the things you tend to search for in your life. How many of them
would count as objects of an ignoble search? How many would be noble?
Reflect on how the noble search turns us away from the world and toward the
spiritual.
2. Reflect on what your life would be like now had the Buddha
remained silent and Buddhadharma had not been born into this world. If
gratitude arises, allow it to expand throughout your whole body.
Last edited by mikenz66 on Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

Another talk on this Sutta:

Bhante Vimalaramsi
http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/mn-1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

There is also Bhikkhu Bodhi's own translation in his published book.
Last edited by Nicholas Weeks on Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Jechbi »

This is an interesting little footnote:
The Burmese, Sri Lankan, and PTS editions of the Canon exclude gold and silver from the list of objects subject to illness, death, and sorrow, apparently on the grounds that they themselves do not grow ill, die, or feel sorrow. The Thai edition of the Canon includes gold and silver in the list of objects subject to illness, death, and sorrow in the sense that any happiness based on them is subject to change because of one's own illness, death, and sorrow.
And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth.
:?:
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But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Jechbi, all,

Interesting footnote indeed. Here is the text it is referring to.
"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.
Gold and Silver aren't subject to birth, conventionally understood, though they are subject to aniccata. They do come together and later dissipate.

I'm therefore inclined to think that the list is referring to things and people, subject to aniccata which can be objects of craving, which seems to make sense given they are referred to as "acquisitions".

Aniccata infiltrates subject and object in conjunction with craving (being "tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them"), hence there is the "aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement" inherent in ignoble searches.

Well that's my take... anyone agree, disagree etc.?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro

Bhikkhu Bodhi explains on the subject of 'acquisitions' and on gold and silver
299: Upadhi: The root meaning is foundation, basis, ground (PED). In commentaries various kinds of upadhi are enumerated, among them the five aggregates, objects of sensual pleasure, defilements and kamma. Nanamoli renders the term consistently throughout as "essentials of existence" wich often obscures its clear contextual meaning. I have tried to capture the several connotations of the word by rendering it "acquisitions" where its objective meaning is prominent (as it is here) abd as "acquisition" where it subjective meaning is prominent. At MN26.19 Nibbana is called the relinquishing of all acquisitions" (sabb'upadipatinissagga), with both meanings intended.

300: Gold and silver are excluded from the things subject to sickness, death, and sorrow, but they are subject to defilement, according to MA, because they can be alloyed with other metals of lesser worth

-- Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Nanamoli, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: a translation of the Majjhima Nikaya
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Ben wrote:Hi Retro

Bhikkhu Bodhi explains on the subject of 'acquisitions' and on gold and silver
299: Upadhi: The root meaning is foundation, basis, ground (PED). In commentaries various kinds of upadhi are enumerated, among them the five aggregates, objects of sensual pleasure, defilements and kamma. Nanamoli renders the term consistently throughout as "essentials of existence" wich often obscures its clear contextual meaning. I have tried to capture the several connotations of the word by rendering it "acquisitions" where its objective meaning is prominent (as it is here) abd as "acquisition" where it subjective meaning is prominent. At MN26.19 Nibbana is called the relinquishing of all acquisitions" (sabb'upadipatinissagga), with both meanings intended.

300: Gold and silver are excluded from the things subject to sickness, death, and sorrow, but they are subject to defilement, according to MA, because they can be alloyed with other metals of lesser worth

-- Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Nanamoli, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: a translation of the Majjhima Nikaya
Kind regards

Ben
Did you type this out from the book Ben, or is it from some document that can be shared online?
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

My take on it is that gold and silver etc are subject to birth, aging and death because attachment to them can bring this about?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

The Sister renders this paragraph (12 in BB's trans.) -
Bhikkhus, what is the noble search. Here a certain one subject to birth, knowing its dangers searches the not decaying noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to decay, knowing the dangers of decay searches the not decaying noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to illness, knowing the dangers of illness searches the non-ailing noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to death, knowing the dangers of death searches the deathless noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to grief, knowing the dangers of grief, searches the non-grieving noble end of the yoke extinction. One subject to defiling, knowing its dangers searches the non-defiled noble end of the yoke extinction. Bhikkhus, this is the noble search.
I wonder about "noble end of the yoke extinction." Bhante Bodhi gives - "supreme security from bondage, Nibbana." The English "noble end" as the same as "supreme security" does not compute - but translation is an art more than a science, I suppose.

Pondering on these descriptions of Nibbana will be helpful in clarifying what it is.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by mikenz66 »

Perhaps it would be interesting to consider the Teaching part of the Sutta.

His first attempts at interacting with others (Upaka the Ajivaka) was rather unsuccessful, perhaps because it was rather "self focussed":
All-vanquishing,
all-knowing am I ...
The first interaction with the Five was also rather argumentative.

This is rather different from later times, where his approach was often much more subtle.

Metta
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Re: MN Session 1 - MN 26. Ariyapariyesanā Sutta

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Will,
Will wrote:I wonder about "noble end of the yoke extinction." Bhante Bodhi gives - "supreme security from bondage, Nibbana."
That's a satisfactory rendering of "anuttaraṃ yogakkhemaṃ nibbānaṃ."
The English "noble end" as the same as "supreme security" does not compute - but translation is an art more than a science, I suppose.
As I mentioned in another thread, one would be well-advised not to rely on Sister Uppalavannā's translations. She simply hasn't a clue.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


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It turns out otherwise.
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