Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

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Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby clw_uk » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:31 pm

Modern Science in the form of Quantum mechanics has shown that you can actually get sub-atomic particles coming out of nothing with no cause and hence no interdependent arising. Does this cancel out a fundemental Buddhist doctrine or interdependence?




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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby vinasp » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:04 pm

Hi clw-uk,

1. No, because cause and effect still applies to anything bigger than sub-atomic particles.
2. No, because Dependent Origination is about what has been mentally constructed, not about the external world.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby clw_uk » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:23 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi clw-uk,

1. No, because cause and effect still applies to anything bigger than sub-atomic particles.
2. No, because Dependent Origination is about what has been mentally constructed, not about the external world.

Best wishes, Vincent.



Thanks, this was kinda my thinking as well

However the sub-atomic is connected to the macroscopic are they not?
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:28 pm

Where does quantum mahanic say this? and when was this theory proven? not that it matters as Quantum Mechanics isnt dealing in the same area as Buddhism
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Dhammabodhi » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:30 pm

As far as I know, the appearance and disappearance of sub-atomic particles is not that well-understood that one can definitively say that they "come out of nowhere without any cause". M-theory( a version of string theory) purports that particles disappear into hidden dimensions( this is far from being proved). This might be a reason why Gravity is a "weak" force, because it is being shared by other dimensions and possibly other universes. The Large Hadron Collider at CERN http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN, is going to test this hypothesis next year.

I recommend these:

The Elegant Universe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfarf7XDqys

Parallel Universes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMFzqbYQigg

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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:42 pm

Hi DB
That is my understading also, they in all likelyhood come frm somewhere but where?

although one reasongravty is so week is becase ihas no fixed point(s) like magnetism has its polls, an other forces ave their fixed points (lack of better way to dscribe it) so gravity isn't as strong in apearance becase of that, not because it isn't as strong!
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Prasadachitta » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:49 pm

Dont they come into being in dependence upon the observance of them coming into being? I am under the impression that at the quantum level it is whether or not we measure an event that creates the particularities of the event.

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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Dhammabodhi » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:58 pm

Hi Manapa,

Although I don't know much of String Theory, what I understand is as follows:

Gravitons are hypothetical particles associated to gravity. String theory predicts the existence of these particles as vibrating closed strings. M-theory deals with the so-called "D-branes", which are models for our universe(s?), and gravitons, which are not "stuck" to these D-branes can leak out to other D-branes, thus causing weakness in gravitational force. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brane_cosmology

As far as analogues to magnetic poles, electric charge monopoles were recently produced in the lab. But for the other forces, esp. strong and weak nuclear forces, I don't know whether such a concept exists.

I hope a physicist among us can help us out better. :reading:

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-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:03 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi clw-uk,

1. No, because cause and effect still applies to anything bigger than sub-atomic particles.
2. No, because Dependent Origination is about what has been mentally constructed, not about the external world.

Best wishes, Vincent.

Wrong. The " external world " and " internal world" both arise dependently.
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:27 pm

Hi DB
Yeah frommemory that is how it was explained to me in brief, but I think graatons are prove aren't they???

anyway yeah most of us aren't scientists here, andthe rudimentary knowledge some of us have may be adequate for a bit of fun conjeture it isn't adequate to actuly disern the truth of the subject. if you want science go to a scientst forum! or a science class?

on that note I wonder how our fav scientist member mawkish is doing?
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:35 pm

Not bad thanks :) just contemplating the best way to answer...

Edit: simple answer, no. There's a lot of misunderstanding about quantum physics floating around here (it's normal, don't worry!) and I'm not sure if trying to condense four years of physics lectures into one post would benefit anyone. I suppose you could look up the 'principal of equivalence' and realise that quantum field theory is a predictive model not a practical mechanism, then learn the difference between the observer principal and Heisenburg's uncertainty principal, but how is any of this helpful for liberation from suffering?
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Dhammabodhi » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:44 pm

Manapa wrote:Yeah frommemory that is how it was explained to me in brief, but I think graatons are prove aren't they???


Nope. Not yet.

Nice to hear from you again Mawkish! :anjali:
-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:59 pm

now there is a a coineky dink havent senyu in a while
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Dhammabodhi » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:00 pm

Hi Mawkish,

Could you point out the inaccuracies in my posts above? I'm eager to learn. I've had courses in Quantum physics but that was a long time ago.

Thanks,
Dhammabodhi
-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:11 pm

Dhammabodhi wrote:Could you point out the inaccuracies in my posts above?

I'd be happy to :). I'll just eat my dinner then I'll reply to each of your posts :)
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:51 pm

I suppose I'll do this one post at a time. Don't really want to spark a massive discussion about each post but I reckon this is the best way to go so I don't miss anything.
clw_uk wrote:Modern Science in the form of Quantum mechanics...

Quantum mechanics is well over 50 years old now. Just sayin'.
clw_uk wrote:...has shown that you can actually get sub-atomic particles coming out of nothing with no cause

Really? A better way of interpreting quantum field theory is that the concept of 'nothing' does not exist in nature. What are particles anyway? They are a construct, a model to explain observed phenomena... quantum physics deals with probability distribution functions, the idea of 'particles' in QM is, basically, meaningless.

... To be continued...
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:54 pm

clw_uk wrote:the sub-atomic is connected to the macroscopic are they not?

Yep, by the principal of equivalence.

...To be continued...
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:56 pm

Manapa wrote:when was this theory proven?

Cue every scientist here cringing. Can you name anything 'proven'? Converse error anyone?

...To be continued...
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:13 pm

Dhammabodhi wrote:the appearance and disappearance of sub-atomic particles is not that well-understood

True, because the universe won't let us understand: see Heisenburg's uncertainty principal. And again, what is a particle?
Dhammabodhi wrote:M-theory...universes.
That's roughly my understanding too, although it's not really science, it's philosophy (in my opinion)
Dhammabodhi wrote:The Large Hadron Collider at CERN http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN, is going to test this hypothesis next year.
So I've heard from the news, but the machine was really designed to search for the Higg's boson. How far the machine's use can be pushed remains to be seen. Personally, I think the media hype about the LHC is great for publicity and funding potential... but often leads the public into believing it'll heal the blind and walk on water etc... etc... etc. Bottom line, it's a collider, nothing more. Finding particles is all it can do.
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Re: Does Quantum Mechanics contradict Buddhism

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:29 pm

Manapa wrote:they in all likelyhood come frm somewhere

Why?
Manapa wrote:gravity is so week is becase ihas no fixed point(s)

Quantum physics is not string theory. The idea that the force of gravity is conveyed via a virtual exchange particle, which is a closed harmonic string is string theory... not QM. This thread is about QM. QM follows the standard model: Higg's boson is in the standard model, the graviton is not.

...To be continued...
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