Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by christopher::: »

pink_trike wrote:
christopher::: wrote:Hi.
If someone is really into astrology, crystals, edgar cayce, ufos and wicca rituals, there may not be much you can say.
Best to be careful even here...the bolded items are found in various mainstream traditions of Buddhism.
Within my own mind i had been putting more of an emphasis on the "and" but yes, point taken.

:tongue:
alan wrote:I have no problem with Tolle. My question is about the "Go with the flow, we all have Buddha Nature, don't bother with too much thinking, don't overthink the words" types. How to deal with them? I mean, without being obnoxious. I'm trying not to be that way.
What i've noticed is a wide range of "ways" in which the dhamma is being taught, with people gravitating toward what meshes with their present situation or thinking. Myself, i don't think there is much that can be said to someone who practices Buddhism as a "go with the flow" approach (without being obnoxious). When the day comes that they find themselves in a crisis, hammered by difficulty- when "going with the flow" doesnt seem to work, that's more likely to be when you might be able to offer a helping hand.
Ben wrote:
The best way to communicate the Dhamma to others is to live a Dhammic life. There really isn't anything else that needs doing.
:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by alan »

Excuse me Ben, I posted that before your statement. Didn't mean any disrespect. Although we may disagree.
Anyone want to answer my question?
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by Jechbi »

alan wrote:How to relate to them without sounding like a fundamentalist?
You can't completely control how others will hear your words.
alan wrote:When is it right speech to point them to the original teachings?
Only at the right time. Again, not completely in your control.

Good luck.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by pink_trike »

The right time to expose others to the original teachings is likely at the point that you can do it free from judgement of their view and path, and in the context of your own understanding of how the teachings benefit your own path.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by alan »

Bedtime for me, friends. Thanks for your thoughts.
User avatar
fig tree
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:25 am

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by fig tree »

alan wrote:Many of their ideas sound good to our western ears, yet are not in accordance with the Dhamma. How to relate to them without sounding like a fundamentalist? When is it right speech to point them to the original teachings?
My sense is that it depends a lot on what kind of connection they describe themselves as having. Someone who is only in the market for psychological insights or just includes the Buddha among various things they find cool :thumbsup: is not necessarily looking to be told they're borrowing from him the wrong way, but has left the door open for you to say you also get psychological insights or find the Buddha cool. If they quote :quote: the Buddha as saying something, like "there's no such thing as right or wrong", it seems to me that leaves the door open for you to ask where they heard or read that, or to say, in the Pali canon it describes him as saying something different, like urging people to refrain from wrong livelihood and so on. Knowing a bit about other traditions can help.

I think one can almost completely leave it up to the other person to decide how much they want to talk about it. One day I was walking down the street when a guy also walking along (looking a bit perplexed, certainly not like he was trying to preach to me) said to me, everybody wants to go to Heaven, don't they? I didn't have much time to explain to him that Buddhists have a different goal, but I said a few words to that effect before he walked another way.

Fig Tree
User avatar
catmoon
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:59 am

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by catmoon »

fig tree wrote: One day I was walking down the street when a guy also walking along (looking a bit perplexed, certainly not like he was trying to preach to me) said to me, everybody wants to go to Heaven, don't they? I didn't have much time to explain to him that Buddhists have a different goal, but I said a few words to that effect before he walked another way.

Fig Tree
Don't forget the Pureland folks. They are Buddhists, aren't they?
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alan,

I think it's a similar problem to interacting with anyone. Think carefully about whether you are trying to be most helpful, or in proving some sort of point. At work I can see people getting in tangles about all kinds of things in destructive ways. If I can point out something helpful, using language they can understand, I do that. Otherwise I let it go...

I should add that I'm also often impressed by the intuition some non-Buddhists have about various issues. Which is another reason not to "lecture" them, or assume that I am "better".

Mike
User avatar
fig tree
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:25 am

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by fig tree »

catmoon wrote:
fig tree wrote: One day I was walking down the street when a guy also walking along (looking a bit perplexed, certainly not like he was trying to preach to me) said to me, everybody wants to go to Heaven, don't they? I didn't have much time to explain to him that Buddhists have a different goal, but I said a few words to that effect before he walked another way.

Fig Tree
Don't forget the Pureland folks. They are Buddhists, aren't they?
Definitely. I thought about elaborating about Buddhists who seek rebirth in a higher realm, but I decided just to leave it the way I wrote it.

Buddhists who wish to be reborn into a pure land are as far as I know (almost?) always doing it as a means toward another goal which they also have, namely ultimate awakening, a goal that they would be glad to achieve in this life if the opportunity arose. Assuming I die as an ordinary person, I too would wish to be reborn somewhere that would offer excellent opportunities for reconnecting with the dhamma and eventually awakening, so we are not altogether different that way.

The guy seemed to be talking about Heaven as the ultimate goal. If we'd had more than a few seconds' conversation, it would've made sense to say that heavens are supposed to be nice but temporary and so on.

Fig Tree
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4529
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by Dan74 »

I think it is futile to debate with folks and try to prove that their Buddhism is not right. Sure if they say "Buddhism is like this (insert some New Agey feel-good adamma)" you should say "No, I don't think so." Then if they are curious to find out why, it's good to bring out some quotes from the suttas (I take that you are Theravadin) that show that Dhamma is about liberation rather than making some samsara padding or creating more imaginings to escape from the responsibilities here and now.

The Buddha himself advised against trying to argue and persuade people. However, if they are interested, of course, it's important to provide them with the right information.

It's good to also refer them to a reputable teacher (in whatever tradition they trust) because they are not going to be New Agey and will basically reinforce the Buddha's message in a way that maybe more palatable to these people.

_/|\_
_/|\_
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by Paññāsikhara »

fig tree wrote:
Buddhists who wish to be reborn into a pure land are as far as I know (almost?) always doing it as a means toward another goal which they also have, namely ultimate awakening, a goal that they would be glad to achieve in this life if the opportunity arose.
Yes, that is the basic gist of it.

The general idea is that one either realizes liberation in the Pureland itself, under the guidance of the Buddha and bodhisattvas there,
OR, that one advances a great deal along the path, and later returns to this Saha (and similar) world system(s) as a bodhisattva, to liberate others.

One of the big appeals of such a path, was that many believed that it was not possible, or at least extremely difficult, to accomplish this in the "Dharma ending age".
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by PeterB »

I think that their may be a difference in "talking" to a new age Buddhist and communicating online with such. In the flesh speech is actually very condensed. Facial expression and body language as well as vocal tone, carry a lot of information in addition to the content of speech. It is possible to say a lot in a very short time. Written language is much slower and less nuanced and relatively impersonal. A problem I have when communicating online with those who approach the Dhamma from a new age perspective is that of weighing the need for socially acceptable behaviour against the thought that they are possibly doing themselves and others unwitting harm. On another site that I have visited there is a regular visitor who is firmly in the new age camp. She denies that the Buddha taught Anatta, and if he did its because it was a long time ago and things have changed and 2012 is approaching ...etc etc. A link to her site shows that she believes that white lions are ascended masters etc etc. Now, does one simply ignore this and wait for something from her that one can agree with, or what ? Suffice it to say that the only person that challenged any of her statements ,publically at least, was me, and it started to look personal ( which it wasnt ) and I recieved a courteous PM telling me to lay off her, that what she said was of course bonkers half the time, but that we should not discourage her. So I stopped responding unless she addressed me personally.. I feel that I probably went off on a mission which was unskillful to some degree, but that simply allowing these ideas ( there is a whole heap of other speculative stuff that I will not go into here ) to go unchallenged ( at least publically ) is also unskillful . Its unresolved as far as my own feelings are concerned.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote: I feel that I probably went off on a mission which was unskillful to some degree, but that simply allowing these ideas ( there is a whole heap of other speculative stuff that I will not go into here ) to go unchallenged ( at least publically ) is also unskillful . Its unresolved as far as my own feelings are concerned.
It's a problem isn't it? How many forums can you do this on? :coffee:

Metta
Mike
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by PeterB »

Even if we confine ourselves to one Mike, which is my intention..Perhaps its ego , but I find it hard to see assurances ( for example,) that the world is going to change for the better/worse at some specific time in the near future hard to ignore. Its the newbies I keep thinking of. Then again my mind tells me, I am sure that they are also exposed to enough of the real deal to form their own views or they wouldnt be joining a Buddhist forum to start with....

I see I dragged the thread somewhat off topic. Returning to it. There is a real movement in terms of therapy towards incorporating elements of Buddhist meditative techniques into the the more existentialist therapies, CBT, Gestalt etc. This I see as positive.
I dont think that this is new age per se . although I am sure that there is a lot of pop psychology around too. I just dont think that Buddhist inspired therapies should be conflated with the Dhamma, which is not just a series of effective techniques , but comes balanced with Sila and with a knowledge of the Suttas and other source material. I have said before the object of therapy is to adjust us to the world. Which may well be a good thing if we are dysfunctional.
The Dhamma however is our means of liberation.
Clueless Git
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:44 am

Re: Talking to New Age/Western buddhists

Post by Clueless Git »

alan wrote: Anyone want to answer my question?
This one?
It is being taught as a psychology, as a way to relax, as away to communicate with your peers. All good things, in there own right. But is this Dhamma?
Probably not actualy Dhamma, no.

But relaxation brings calmness of mind, communication skills require the development of empathy (a bit of the old "see yourself in other ..") and so on and so forth ..

Such things are of the dhamma, if not actualy the dhamma, I think.
Post Reply