Privileged woman, poor man

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Annapurna
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Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Annapurna »

We all know the sutra where Buddha explains how rare a human rebirth is, and even harder to be reborn as a man. (Can't find it now)

I've been thinking about this, (needless to say ;) )

It raises the question if it is really a "less fortunate" rebirth to be reborn as a privileged, beautiful, rich and intelligent woman, born into favorable surroundings, or an ugly, unintelligent man, born into, let's say, a ghetto. Or the third world.

Or how about the Butler who serves a rich woman?

Or the underprivileged man who goes to the army, goes to war and gets severe wounds which maim and cripple him for the rest of his life?

I can't help it, but I would rather be a woman then. It seems the 'better' incarnation then, where gender is secondary, doesn't it?

Any thoughts?

-Annabel :anjali:
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Annabel wrote:We all know the sutra where Buddha explains how rare a human rebirth is, and even harder to be reborn as a man. (Can't find it now)

I've been thinking about this, (needless to say ;) )

It raises the question if it is really a "less fortunate" rebirth to be reborn as a privileged, beautiful, rich and intelligent woman, born into favorable surroundings, or an ugly, unintelligent man, born into, let's say, a ghetto. Or the third world.

Or how about the Butler who serves a rich woman?

Or the underprivileged man who goes to the army, goes to war and gets severe wounds which maim and cripple him for the rest of his life?

I can't help it, but I would rather be a woman then. It seems the 'better' incarnation then, where gender is secondary, doesn't it?

Any thoughts?

-Annabel :anjali:
Thoughts?

Well, maybe that often the "rarity" of human rebirth, or as you are emphasizing here, "male" human rebirth, is not listed alone. Often, it is part of a list of eight "rare" circumstances. These include having the time, conditions, and environment, etc. to practice the Dharma.

And, the usual "the Buddha is mainly speaking to a male audience in a society which actually did discriminate against women", etc. which we all already know.

I've said before, don't take the notion of "male" rebirth as somehow better than feminine as an ultimate. Much more complex. Obviously, to be reborn as a woman with resources to practice Dharma in a matriarchal society, then that would be superior to being reborn as a crippled slave boy without resources in the same society.

But, even then, wholesome kamma is reflected in more than this. Many who are wealthy and privileged are very attached and not happy, whereas those who are not may be less attached.

Like anything, it pays to neither over simplify the situation, but also to apply general principles to actual examples, rather than just taking general principles as ultimates in the abstract.
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by cooran »

Hello Anabel,
Annabel said: We all know the sutra where Buddha explains how rare a human rebirth is, and even harder to be reborn as a man. (Can't find it now)
The Buddha said being born into the human state is rare and difficult - I don't recall him saying that being born as a male was even harder. Please back up your statement with a direct link.

SN 56.48 Chiggala Sutta: The Hole
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"
"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."
"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.
"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Chris wrote:Hello Anabel,
Annabel said: We all know the sutra where Buddha explains how rare a human rebirth is, and even harder to be reborn as a man. (Can't find it now)
The Buddha said being born into the human state is rare and difficult - I don't recall him saying that being born as a male was even harder. Please back up your statement with a direct link.

...
metta
Chris
Maybe it is one of the those translations that likes to use "man" for "manussa", as opposed to "human being", or something like that? Nowadays, it seems that the usage of English "man" to refer to "human kind" in a non-gender specific manner, is becoming less and less common.

As the male / female ration is about 50/50, logically the "difficulty" of either is also about the same.
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Annapurna »

Chris wrote:Hello Anabel,
Annabel said: We all know the sutra where Buddha explains how rare a human rebirth is, and even harder to be reborn as a man. (Can't find it now)
The Buddha said being born into the human state is rare and difficult - I don't recall him saying that being born as a male was even harder. Please back up your statement with a direct link.

SN 56.48 Chiggala Sutta: The Hole
"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"
"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."
"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.
"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
I would love to, but e sangha is down!

I can't retrieve it from my replies, and I can't spend hours searching for it in access to insight.
I 'm surprised you don't know it!

You usually know everything!

In any case it's also got to do with the turtle.

He goes on like this:

It's hard to become a human being, harder still to become a man.

And then breaks it down from level to level, descending.
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Annapurna »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Chris wrote:Hello Anabel,
Annabel said: We all know the sutra where Buddha explains how rare a human rebirth is, and even harder to be reborn as a man. (Can't find it now)
The Buddha said being born into the human state is rare and difficult - I don't recall him saying that being born as a male was even harder. Please back up your statement with a direct link.

...
metta
Chris
Maybe it is one of the those translations that likes to use "man" for "manussa", as opposed to "human being", or something like that? Nowadays, it seems that the usage of English "man" to refer to "human kind" in a non-gender specific manner, is becoming less and less common.

As the male / female ration is about 50/50, logically the "difficulty" of either is also about the same.
:goodpost:
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Ben »

Anabel
Try and think of it like this...
The spectrum of sentient life and dukkha is so vast, so huge.
The difference between a man and a woman, is in the words of my teacher, 'mere vibration'.
You have the incomparable good kamma (or fortune) to be born a human at a time nd place where the Buddha's dispensation is still in existence.
Again, in the words of my teacher:
Make best use of this wonderful opportunity!
Kind regards

Ben
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Dhammabodhi »

Hi Anna,

As far as cessation of suffering is concerned, I think neither of the two rebirths in your scenarios is more or less fortunate than the other, what you do with your rebirth is what matters.

One can find plenty of suffering for people living in both scenarios, as well as enlightened beings with those backgrounds (Dipa ma was a woman with a middle class background).

Just my humble opinion.

Metta, :anjali:
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Annapurna »

Ben wrote:Anabel
Try and think of it like this...
The spectrum of sentient life and dukkha is so vast, so huge.
The difference between a man and a woman, is in the words of my teacher, 'mere vibration'.
You have the incomparable good kamma (or fortune) to be born a human at a time nd place where the Buddha's dispensation is still in existence.
Again, in the words of my teacher:
Make best use of this wonderful opportunity!
Kind regards

Ben
Of course, Ben. Thanks! I agree with your teacher! (And intend to make good use of it, if possible)

For me this is more a logical issue, not one of my personal life.
You know the feeling, when you think:

I know a man who lives a miserable life, and I know a woman, who is his superior in every aspect I can think of.

She is happy, he is not.

You know?

And then it should have been the harder and greater achievement to have become a miserable man instead of a happy woman?

It's not logical. :smile:

:coffee:
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by pink_trike »

"Female" has traditionally been associated with dependency, receptivity, vulnerability, and passivity...mistaken as weak and "needy" in male-dominated societies - this perceived neediness became associated with craving/desire...thus women became perceived as needy and desiring - craven and dissatisfied...not suitable for spiritual awakening. "Male" has traditionally been associated with assertiveness and independence - freedom...which was believed to be needed in order to be free from craving...so men were perceived as having an inside track to spiritual awakening. Imo, the belief that is found in many old patriarchal cultures that women are inferior to men spiritually has to do with a blurring of the socially-enforced "passivity/need/dependency" that naturally arises when women are subjugated and forced into dependency on men - with "female" . A classic case of mistaking circumstances and projections of the mind for reality.
Last edited by pink_trike on Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by mikenz66 »

Paññāsikhara wrote: As the male / female ration is about 50/50, logically the "difficulty" of either is also about the same.
Of couse.

But logically it twice as "difficult" to be born as a man than to be born as a human.
And twice as "difficult" to be born as a woman than to be born as a human.
So where were we? :thinking:

Mike
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Annapurna »

:shock:

Goodness. I don't have a clue what you're saying and feel ignorant. :broke:

Help....?
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Anna,
Annabel wrote: Goodness. I don't have a clue what you're saying and feel ignorant. :broke:
I'm sure it's my fault...

What I meant was that if there is, say, one chance in a million of being born human then there is one chance in two million of being born as a human male and one chance in two million of being born as a human female. Thus, there is less chance of being born as a male human than of being born as a human.

Mike
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by Annapurna »

Oh. :thinking:

Ty.
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Re: Privileged woman, poor man

Post by notself »

Annabel:

I agree with Chris. I think you may have misread a sutta. Your version that it is rare or more important to be born male would conflict directly with other suttas. Here is one example from the Samyutta Nikaya, Book V:
5. "What does womanhood matter at all
When the mind is concentrated well,
When knowledge flows on steadily
As one sees correctly into Dhamma.
6. One to whom it might occur,
'I'm a woman' or 'I'm a man'
Or 'I'm anything at all' —
Is fit for Mara to address."
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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