Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4530
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by Dan74 »

It sounds sensible enough.

I must say that in my experience all the myths have been simply irrelevant. My teacher has never appealed to them, nor used them as any sort of justification for Zen. Rather all the teachings have been concerned with practice (sila, samadhi, pana in everyday life, workings of the mind and its habitual tendencies, the Unconditioned, etc). I do not recall her use the Mahakasyapa story more than once and that was to illustrate a point rather than provide some sort of lineage backing.

Similarly with reading other Zen teachers - I haven't seen them make much mileage out of the myths at all.

As for Mahayana justification of its sutras, I think that for quite a while the common story was that they were not spoken by the historical Buddha in his physical emanation as Siddhartha Gotama anyway. In simple terms, realized masters "channeled" Buddhahood that is not separate nor ultimately different from Gotama. Besides Mahayana sutras are likely composite documents with "forewords" often added later.

So I am all for being brutally honest about the history and all that, but hopefully not to get hung up on it. That would be a waste of energy that is best spent on practice.

_/|\_
_/|\_
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dugu,
Dugu wrote: I believe the Sutta Pitaka already has everything you need to lead a holy life and reach Enlightenment.
Yes, but I was also talking about the Commentary to those Suttas. To be consistent I presume you ignore the commentary of Ajahn Sujato and other modern teachers?

Metta
Mike
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by Paññāsikhara »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dugu,
Dugu wrote: I believe the Sutta Pitaka already has everything you need to lead a holy life and reach Enlightenment.
Yes, but I was also talking about the Commentary to those Suttas. To be consistent I presume you ignore the commentary of Ajahn Sujato and other modern teachers?

Metta
Mike
Not to mention that these are also translations - there is a saying, "translation is interpretation". Very seldom do two words in two languages correspond identically in semantic field, let alone when the two languages are Pali and English.
And those translations are made through the help of the commentaries, and also dictionaries based a lot upon the commentaries, compiled by modern writers.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dugu,
Dugu wrote: I believe the Sutta Pitaka already has everything you need to lead a holy life and reach Enlightenment.
Yes, but I was also talking about the Commentary to those Suttas. To be consistent I presume you ignore the commentary of Ajahn Sujato and other modern teachers?

Metta
Mike
Not to mention that these are also translations - there is a saying, "translation is interpretation". Very seldom do two words in two languages correspond identically in semantic field, let alone when the two languages are Pali and English.
And those translations are made through the help of the commentaries, and also dictionaries based a lot upon the commentaries, compiled by modern writers.
It is commentaries all around. Can't get away from them.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by PeterB »

I think to some extent the apparent split between myth and history is not altogether relevant when talking about a spritual tradition. Something can be true without being historical, just as something can be historical but not directly shed light on what is true. Poetry is true, but does not correspond with scientific fact necessarily. A poetic description of a sunset is no less true than an analysis of the refraction of light through water droplets and atmospheric particles..
My own questioning of the Mahayana is not due to its relability as history or myth. Its to do with whether its myths tell the same story as does the Theravada.
My faith in the Theravada stems from it's narrative about what it is to be a human being whose existence is coloured by Dukkha, and its narrative of the way to be free of Dukkha by clear and practical means.
Some of the commentaries are poetic, some of them are analogous to science. Some are both. Instead of junking the commentaries I think which should learn to read them aright.
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by Jechbi »

zavk wrote:I really applaud his arguments about the need for critical self-reflexivity, and I think this applies to all of us, irregardless of the tradition we identify with.
Right. That's why I applauded your comment.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by Jechbi »

pink_trike wrote:This, imo, shows a large misunderstanding regarding how myths were carefully constructed to include a mythic surface layer that reflected literal objective truths stored in discreet folders and underlays within the myth...the mythic layer being a _precise_ symbolic representation of actual events and theoretical conclusions, but told in a way that would most efficiently imprint on the collective consciousness for passage forward into future generations over vast stretches of time. This architectural function begins to fail at some point along the trajectory forward as people begin to forget that there is an underlay and the surface becomes a distorted broken version of the original message as the symbolic begins to be taken as literal truth.
This is a really cool idea, but for me it raises the question of when those "actual events" occurred (long before Gotama's time?), what those event were (precisely), and who was there at that time to record them precisely and encode them in symbolism for us. Probably impossible to answer.

_________________________________
tiltbillings wrote:It is commentaries all around. Can't get away from them.
Practice.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Dugu wrote:I agree with Ajahn Sujato. That's why I only study the Sutta Pitaka.
Dito
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by Individual »

pink_trike wrote: In one sense the debate boils down to "who owns Buddhism?"
But since no "who" can be found, the question of "ownership" is trivial.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
User avatar
Dugu
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:39 am

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by Dugu »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dugu,
Dugu wrote: I believe the Sutta Pitaka already has everything you need to lead a holy life and reach Enlightenment.
Yes, but I was also talking about the Commentary to those Suttas. To be consistent I presume you ignore the commentary of Ajahn Sujato and other modern teachers?

Metta
Mike
I was strictly referring to Abhidhamma. There is one wisdom that the Buddha taught was not to pursue things that isn't conducive to the holy life such as when some disciples want to know whether the universe is eternal or not eternal, whether there is a god or not, etc... the Buddha refuse to answer these questions because it is not going to help them to be liberated. And I believe the Buddha has already taught all we need to know to follow the path in the Sutta Pitaka and we should focus on following the path than indulge more on understanding the nature of reality which can be a hinderance to your practice if you are not careful. Not to say it can't help, you may gain some extra insights from studying Abhidhamma but it really isn't necessary. That's all I am saying. :)
User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by pink_trike »

Jechbi wrote: This is a really cool idea, but for me it raises the question of when those "actual events" occurred (long before Gotama's time?), what those event were (precisely), and who was there at that time to record them precisely and encode them in symbolism for us. Probably impossible to answer.
Not impossible, but certainly difficult to address at any intelligent level of discourse within what has become a closed system that has a prevailing standard of "Buddha said it, I believe it".
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Some recent interesting (yet off-topic) posts have been split into a new topic...

How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2568

Thanks.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

Dugu wrote: I was strictly referring to Abhidhamma. There is one wisdom that the Buddha taught was not to pursue things that isn't conducive to the holy life such as when some disciples want to know whether the universe is eternal or not eternal, whether there is a god or not, etc... the Buddha refuse to answer these questions because it is not going to help them to be liberated. And I believe the Buddha has already taught all we need to know to follow the path in the Sutta Pitaka and we should focus on following the path than indulge more on understanding the nature of reality which can be a hinderance to your practice if you are not careful. Not to say it can't help, you may gain some extra insights from studying Abhidhamma but it really isn't necessary. That's all I am saying.
And you are saying all this based upon a careful study and practice of the actual Abhidhamma Pitaka texts?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And you are saying all this based upon a careful study and practice of the actual Abhidhamma Pitaka texts?
Wouldn't the instruction of the Simsapa Sutta, in conjunction with observations such as that made by Ajahn Sujato regarding the Abhidhamma Pitaka be sufficient basis for Dugu's comments (whether or not one chooses to agree with them, or their underlying assumptions)?

To extend the analogy, would someone need to undertake a careful study and practice of the actual Mahayana texts in order to decide they were not essential for enlightenment? If so, why?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And you are saying all this based upon a careful study and practice of the actual Abhidhamma Pitaka texts?
Wouldn't the instruction of the Simsapa Sutta, in conjunction with observations such as that made by Ajahn Sujato regarding the Abhidhamma Pitaka be sufficient basis for Dugu's comments (whether or not one chooses to agree with them, or their underlying assumptions)?
I see people dismissing the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts without really knowing what is in them or how they function. As for Ajahn Sujato, he is an interesting guy, but why dismiss something out of hand based upon what someone else says? As for the Simpasa Sutta, how is it the the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts (and here I am NOT talking about later Abhidhamma expositions) step outside what the Buddha taught as being necessary for awakening?
To extend the analogy, would someone need to undertake a careful study and practice of the actual Mahayana texts in order to decide they were not essential for enlightenment? If so, why?
If you have no idea what is in them, how would you know?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply