Should we offer food to Buddha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Subharo
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by Subharo »

mikenz66 wrote:I was referring mostly to rituals such a bowing, chanting praise, taking refuges and precepts, and various ceremonies, such as Kathina, all of which appear to me to be firmly grounded in the suttas.
I feel the most comfortable when a puja consists of lighting candles, bowing, chanting for about 15 minutes, and meditating silently for at least a good 45 minutes. I like it when silent meditation gets "place of pride", and not the chanting (in terms of duration). And that's what the Ajahn Chah tradition does at their pujas (at least in the Ajahn-Chah monasteries I've practised in).

It is indeed a "shared group experience", as you say, which gives a valuable sense of camaraderie.

The mental discomfort I mentioned above was usually just for the duration of the actual food offering. The rest of the time (the other 99% of the time), life in those monasteries was really great, and I'm grateful to have been there. I no longer let the issue stick in my mind (making me upset), now that I've thought it through, and feel I understand it (even if I don't feel particularly inspired by it). I can accept it, without necessarily agreeing with it. I have a much more equanimous attitude towards it now.
Subharo Bhikkhu
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha :buddha1:
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mikenz66
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by mikenz66 »

No_Mind wrote:I have a different but related question. Let alone offer food and perform a Puja, is there any liturgy and rituals at all in "pure" Buddhism ? Am I even required to bow to a Buddha statue .. Buddha is not residing in that statue and it is doubtful if Buddha at all looked like that.
Yes, that's an interesting question.

I already quoted the verses about the recollection of the Buddha above, and the Mahāparinibbānasutta certainly talks about shrines and offerings:
DN 16 wrote: So they act in regard to a Universal Monarch’s body, and as they act in regard to a Universal Monarch’s body so should they act in regard to a Realised One’s body, and a Shrine should be made for the Realised One at the crossroads. Whoever there prepares flowers, incense, or powder, or worships or establishes confidence in his mind, that will be for their benefit and happiness for a long time.
https://suttacentral.net/en/dn16
Clearly many details have evolved since then (and it might be argued that the Mahāparinibbānasutta itself was evolved). I think how that evolution is viewed depends on whether there is an aspiration for Dhamma "only as on can find in the suttas", or "consistent with the suttas". The latter allows for much more flexibility.

:anjali:
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forestmat
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Re: How about reverencing living arahants?

Post by forestmat »

Namasakarn Tan Ajahn Subharo, and hope you are well in the holy life,

you mention an important point in your reply:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against reverencing the Buddha, in whatever way the Buddha actually told us to. It's just that I do not particularly dig Hindu-style rituals which, when taken at face value, seem to strongly imply that the Buddha must still be up there somewhere, looking down upon us from the heaven called "Nibbana", where he finds it pleasing, and is appeased, whenever we make sacrificial offerings of food to him [..]
It's rather refreshing to see a monk prepared to actually say this.

With metta

Matt
Hartridge Buddhist Monastery, Devon, England
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robertk
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by robertk »

dear Venerable
attachment is normal but still it is always akusala, even to the Buddha.
When the Buddha came down the jewelled staircase at sankassa, after preaching Abhidhamma to his mother in Tavitimsa deva world, it is said that all the putthujhanna who saw this amazing sight had strong attachment . Understandable.

Is it good to encourage attachment to teachers or rituals?
I think it is better to help people see the difference between the attachment and appreciation.
robert
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NotMe
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by NotMe »

Weakfocus wrote:
nalinJ wrote:Did Lord Buddha mention that by offering food to his status we can gain merits?
Or
Did Lord Buddha mention something similar?
To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no such reference anywhere in Tipitaka.
Buddha was very much against such ignorant rites and rituals.
Good answer, but I believe there is a sutta where the Buddha is asked if he approved of a statue, and he replied something like "If it inspires just one person to the path, it is worth it."

To survive in the west for westerners, the cultural baggage must be stripped.
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robertk
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by robertk »

NotMe wrote:
Weakfocus wrote:
nalinJ wrote:Did Lord Buddha mention that by offering food to his status we can gain merits?
Or
Did Lord Buddha mention something similar?
To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no such reference anywhere in Tipitaka.
Buddha was very much against such ignorant rites and rituals.
Good answer, but I believe there is a sutta where the Buddha is asked if he approved of a statue, and he replied something like "If it inspires just one person to the path, it is worth it."

To survive in the west for westerners, the cultural baggage must be stripped.
No such sutta.
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acinteyyo
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by acinteyyo »

Maybe it is of interest that there were no Buddha statues in the beginning and that the statues are a result of the Buddha as an individual becoming iconic. Before the statues were made there were the footprints of the Buddha, which in my personal opinion, served a better purpose for veneration and remembrance. A footprint is an impression, a negative of something so to say and points to the "one thus gone". I don't think people would have offered food or water to foodprints but I don't know. Just my 2 cents...

best wishes, acinteyyo
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Ben
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by Ben »

NotMe wrote:To survive in the west for westerners, the cultural baggage must be stripped.
I assume here you mean that for Buddhism to survive in the west for westerners, Buddhism must be stripped of its 'cultural baggage'.
With respect, I believe here you are mistaken.
Most people in the west who approach Buddhism come to it Through a prism of western philosophical and cultural tropes that have dominated interpretation and perception of the Dhamma in the west. Add to it the heliotropic culture of the west that Buddhism must conform to one's own personal proclivities, I think instead it would be a bit more fruitful if converts to western Buddhism developed some gratitude and humility to the cultures and people who maintained the tradition of the Theravada through Millenia and be prepared to lay aside their own preconceived ideas of what is the true Dhamma.
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
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seeker242
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by seeker242 »

waterchan wrote:
nalinJ wrote:Did Lord Buddha mention that by offering food to his status we can gain merits?
The real question is: how does one offer food that the Buddha will actually eat? In all the time I've offered food to a Buddha statue, it has never even taken a bite :(
By bringing it to a monastery and offering it to monks who are still alive?! :tongue:

The Buddha spoke very highly of Dana and giving, but he mostly, if not always, meant giving it to actual living beings.

IMO, if you are making offering to an actual bhikkhu sangha, you are giving to the Buddha.

:meditate:
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Subharo
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by Subharo »

No_Mind wrote: is there any liturgy and rituals at all in "pure" Buddhism ? Am I even required to bow to a Buddha statue .. Buddha is not residing in that statue and it is doubtful if Buddha at all looked like that.
After the Buddha attained enlightenment, he realized that he had to still "dwell reverentially", or he would suffer. Yes, suffering is still possible, even once one is fully enlightened, if one has no reverence. The Buddha then decided to dwell reverentially towards the Dhamma itself.

Ajahn Dhammasiha further elaborated on this to me, explaining that there's an interesting quirk to human nature: people always need to be revering and praising something or other. And if we don't consciously pick some spiritual thing to revere, then something worldly will step into the vacuum almost immediately. If Buddhists don't revere, say, the Buddha, then they'll just go and revere, say, the rock stars, and the sports heroes of the world.

It's easy for me, for example, in a moment of heedlessness, to find myself start deeply appreciating, and conversationally talking to friends and acquaintances about the secular modern geniuses and heroes and visionaries of the modern world (such as Linus Torvalds, Edward Snowden, Bruce Scheier, the Debian developers, etc.). But then I have to remind myself that all the things those (assumedly) non-spiritually-focused people are focusing on instead, are things which are impermanent, which have no lasting essence you could ensconce a "self" upon, and which are suffering.

So to answer your question, no, I guess you do not have to "dwell reverentially" somehow (such as through whatever liturgical or ritualistic means a given Buddhist group all comes together around). But you'll suffer if you don't "dwell reverentially" somehow (and many people appreciating doing it in a group setting, which feels supportive). Even the Buddha himself had to respect "dwelling reverentially", somehow, once enlightened.
Subharo Bhikkhu
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha :buddha1:
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No_Mind
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by No_Mind »

Subharo wrote: So to answer your question, no, I guess you do not have to "dwell reverentially" somehow (such as through whatever liturgical or ritualistic means a given Buddhist group all comes together around). But you'll suffer if you don't "dwell reverentially" somehow (and many people appreciating doing it in a group setting, which feels supportive). Even the Buddha himself had to respect "dwelling reverentially", somehow, once enlightened.
Venerable,

If I concentrate on being true to the Dhamma every moment that I am alive is that not dwelling reverentially ? Do I have to bow to a lifeless statue which is a reminder of Hinduism and its anthropotheism to me (I am by birth a Hindu but for three generations my family has rejected mainstream Hindu practice and beliefs.)

It is October and next week every one around me will be praying for four days to a Goddess with ten hands, riding a mighty lion (Durga, the slayer of evil.) It is to escape such beliefs and to escape idolatry that I began to study Buddhism. How can I exchange one set of superstitious iconography for another ?

I serve Dhamma and thus I serve Buddha. That is the only form of prayer I am willing to accept. I have a small statuette of Buddha on a shelf but I do not bow to it; instead I sometimes tell it, my heeding of your words is the only act of reverence you are ever going to get from me .. no candles, no flowers, no incense.

:anjali:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
daverupa
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by daverupa »

I think instead it would be a bit more fruitful if converts to western Buddhism...
Converts to Western Buddhism? What is this other than a hasty over-generalization?
... developed some gratitude and humility to the cultures and people who maintained the tradition of the Theravada through Millenia and be prepared to lay aside their own preconceived ideas of what is the true Dhamma.
Suppose there is gratitude, humility, and non-complacency?

Suppose certain ideas are not pre-conceived, but very carefully post-conceived?

---
Ben wrote:Most people in the west who approach Buddhism come to it Through a prism of western philosophical and cultural tropes that have dominated interpretation and perception of the Dhamma in the west.
This sentence can be re-written to demonstrate the biases inherent in the 'eastern' tropes, etc. Sacred threads of protection throughout SE Asia come to mind; if any of this is seen as exclusively training the mind, then there is some hope, but how many humans actually engage in social & religious ritual with right view?

"Heliotropic" is an interesting judgment, too... Ben, this sword you're wielding cuts both ways, but you don't seem to know that... shadows of ethno-culturo-centrism are wafting about in the wings of this discussion...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Subharo
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by Subharo »

No_Mind wrote: If I concentrate on being true to the Dhamma every moment that I am alive is that not dwelling reverentially ?
That is dwelling reverentially. If you sincerely try to follow all of the Buddha's advice, then I don't see how any Buddhist could blame or censure you for that.
No_Mind wrote: How can I exchange one set of superstitious iconography for another ?
Indeed, such superstitiousness (if that is indeed how it's being held) would be a vexation to the spirit, and counter-productive. It also sounds a lot like the fetter of "silabata paramasa" to me, as well. It seems there is a subtle yet important distinction here which needs to be made: reverence, properly wielded, is a skilful thing (in fact essential, or one will suffer), while ritualistic superstition (which is a close cousin of reverence) is an unskilful thing.
No_Mind wrote: I serve Dhamma and thus I serve Buddha. That is the only form of prayer I am willing to accept. I have a small statuette of Buddha on a shelf but I do not bow to it; instead I sometimes tell it, my heeding of your words is the only act of reverence you are ever going to get from me .. no candles, no flowers, no incense.
Right on, Brother. But just be careful to not offend the others, who unfortunately may have very fragile emotions around what they deeply believe and hold to be true (which is the consequence of strongly-held views, which of course the Buddha also advised against). We would also do well to make sure we do not have strongly held views in the opposite direction.


Whatever is seen, heard, sensed, or clung to,
is esteemed as truth by other folk,
Midst those who are entrenched in their own views
Being “Such” I hold none as true of false.

This barb I beheld, well in advance,
whereupon mankind is hooked, impaled,
“I know, I see, 'tis verily so” – no such clinging
for the Tathāgatas.


(from the Kāḷakārāma Sutta, AN 4.24)
Last edited by Subharo on Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Subharo Bhikkhu
"There is but one taste on this path, the taste of freedom" -The Buddha :buddha1:
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NotMe
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by NotMe »

robertk wrote:No such sutta.
Thanks for the correction,robertk, gotta do more research before giving up. Regardless, in the Monastic Code Vol 1, trans. Thanissaro, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... o/bmc1.pdf "shrines" are mentioned numerous times in the rules: how to interact, accept gifts for, transport between shrines of offerings, etc. So are shrines part of the "cultural baggage"? No it seems?
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NotMe
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Re: Should we offer food to Buddha?

Post by NotMe »

Ben wrote:I assume here you mean that for Buddhism to survive in the west for westerners, Buddhism must be stripped of its 'cultural baggage'.
Yes!
Ben wrote:With respect, I believe here you are mistaken.
Good! That is what discussion is for. I ask for no respect, but it is appreciated.
Ben wrote:Most people in the west who approach Buddhism come to it Through a prism of western philosophical and cultural tropes that have dominated interpretation and perception of the Dhamma in the west.
excuse the interuption, this to, must be abandoned by identification and correction - if we are discussing 'the teachings of the elders' sorry, please continue:
Ben wrote:Add to it the heliotropic culture of the west that Buddhism must conform to one's own personal proclivities, I think instead it would be a bit more fruitful if converts to western Buddhism developed some gratitude and humility to the cultures and people who maintained the tradition of the Theravada through Millenia and be prepared to lay aside their own preconceived ideas of what is the true Dhamma.
Most assuredly. I take refuge in a quadruple gem - but don't tell anybody. The NOBLE Buddha, The NOBLE Dhamma, The NOBLE Sangha, and all the monks/nuns in training, common women, men, the old, the young, the supporters of the parisa from day 1 on, any culture, any form, that has kept the dhamma or its core teaching accessible regardless of how the cultural baggage may make access difficult for others not of that culture. So, obviously, my view is not scripture. My stance for that view of baggage removal comes from viewing it as I believe a "modern, youthful westerner" searching for "the escape" from suffering found in the world today. No scriptural basis for this view - so let's discuss!
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