About the fifth Śīla

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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dragonwarrior
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About the fifth Śīla

Post by dragonwarrior »

"To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness"

Alcohol is included, isn't it? Do you still drink? :toast:
Winny wrote:Drinkers should answer:
1. why are you addicted to alcohol? Is it just for fun/ kinda escape when you got stressed?
2. do you intend to stop your addiction? do you think you can beat alcoholism?

hope we all stay healthy
:anjali:
winny
Last edited by dragonwarrior on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by mikenz66 »

Not since my first retreat...

Lucky for you, I think honey is OK though...

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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Sanghamitta »

I have a few sips of champaigne at a wedding or similar rather than be attention seeking ( which is what it would feel like if I refused ) otherwise not.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Ben
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Ben »

None of the silas are optional.
I don't drink, nor do I serve alcohol or approve of others drinking. and if i am asked, I am unapolgetic.
Even if one is not a Buddhist, the evidence of alcohol destroying lives, families and communities is self apparent.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Dan74
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Dan74 »

I don't quite share Ben's attitude here.

Personally I had just about given up (lost interest in alcoholic drinks and mindstates) until I made friends with a fellow to whom this is a very important ritual. So every two months or so we share a barrel of beer in my garage.

The Buddha gave very practical reasons for avoiding intoxication and as a general rule it is both wise and expedient. When those reasons do not apply, however, or when there are other considerations, exception can be made, I think.

On a side note, Chogyam Trungpa was said to frequent pubs and talk dharma to the alcoholics. Quite a few became his disciples, I believe.

In Japanese Zen it is also a lot more acceptable with Sasaki Roshi still indulging at 102 from what I've heard. Korean monks generally follow the Vinaya and don't drink but my teacher's teacher, Kusan Sunim happily toasted with a full glass on his American trip and would just leave it full without making any fuss.

Just some stories from other traditions in case people are interested.

_/|\_
_/|\_
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Ben
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Ben »

Dan it wasn't just avoiding intoxication. It was abstaining.
'All arahants, for as long as life lasts, have given up the taking of liquors and intoxicants (sura-meraya-majja-pamadatthana), of that which intoxicates, causing carelessness. They are far from intoxicants.

-- Uposotha sutta

The fifth precept reads: Suramerayamajjapamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented and distilled intoxicants which are the basis for heedlessness."

-- Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts by Bhikkhu Bodhi
until I made friends with a fellow to whom this is a very important ritual. So every two months or so we share a barrel of beer in my garage.
Are you sure you're not just enabling his addiction?
Just some stories from other traditions in case people are interested.
All sorts of abhorent behaviour gets excused as 'skilful means'. And really what's going on is that people keep precepts when they want and abandon them when it suits them. Nowhere in the Tipitaka have I seen the Buddha advocating that behaviour.

If you want skilful means, why don't you have a chat to some of the inmates on your next round at the prison who have been responsible for killing people due to driving under the influence of alcohol, or inmates who have committed violent crimes while intoxicated. Spend some time at a soup kitchen or homeless shelter and speak to those with serious mental and other health issues and their alcoholism.
Go spend some time at the Emergency Department of Royal Perth Hospital on a Friday or Saturday nights and see the trauma cases roll in, people who've been mashed in cars or bashed or stabbed by intoxicated individuals. Go up to Port Hedland, have a look at the alcohol-addled indigenous people, living in their own filth on the perimeter of town. It should be a prescient reminder of the First Noble Truth and why the fifth precept should be maintained.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Dan74
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Dan74 »

I think you are preaching to the converted here, Ben.

There is no denying that alcohol is a factor is a vast number of tragedies.

There is also no denying that different cultures handle it very differently. For example in Italy, where a glass of wine is almost obligatory at lunch, there is far less alcoholism than in most other European countries and positive side effects like lower cholesterol, etc, while in Northern Europe and Russia, the story is sadly very different.

Your last paragraph is also unlikely to convince most of my colleagues who enjoy a quite glass of wine with their Saturday tea and don't kill people on the road or beat their wives afterwards. And quite rightly too.

Drinking, like every other activity, is vastly imbued with the social attitudes, context, beliefs and personal attributes of course.

Have a look here, for example:

http://www.peele.net/lib/sociocul.html
How Italian youth, as distinct from American youth, are taught to drink:
"Italians, like Jews, are a group whose members tend to drink and to have low rates of alcohol problems. The attitudes and behaviors of Italians in the United States are a reflection of those in Italy, where children are introduced to alcohol as part of their regular family life and learn to drink moderate amounts while still young. In both countries, alcohol is commonly drunk with meals and is considered a natural and normal food. Most people agree that alcohol in moderation, for those who choose to drink, is necessary, and that abuse is unacceptable and results in immediate sanctions. People are not pressured to drink, and abstention does not offend others; drinking reflects sociability and social cohesion rather than a means to achieve them. Very few people drink for the physiological effect, and most people take alcohol for granted, with no mixed feelings or uncertainty about it." Hanson, D.J., "The United States of America," pp. 300-315 in Heath, D.B., ed., International Handbook on Alcohol and Culture, Greenwood Press, Westport, CT, 1995, p. 309.
"In Italy, in contrast to America, drinking is institutionalized as part of family life and dietary and religious custom; alcohol (wine) is introduced early in life, within the context of the family, and as a traditional accompaniment to meals and a healthful way of enhancing the diet. Drinking is not, as it is in America, associated with transformation of status from adolescence to adulthood; alcohol use is not an illicit activity for Italian youth; and heavy, consistent use of alcohol in Italy does not carry with it the same `problem' connotation that it does in America. Such an approach to the socialization of alcohol use should make it less likely in Italy than in America that drinking will be learned as a way of trying to solve personal problems or of coping with inadequacy and failure." Jessor, R., et al., "Perceived Opportunity, Alienation, and Drinking Behavior Among Italian and American Youth," Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1970, Vol. 15, 215-222 (quote pp. 215-216).
I am not trying to excuse or rationalise drinking. In fact for anyone with some experience with meditation it is usually obvious that even a small drink seriously impairs the ability to function, let alone function mindfully. What I am questioning is your categorical approach that does not gel with the Dhamma as I understand it, your quotes notwithstanding.

I think the key are the words "carelessness" and "heedlessness" in your citations. Avoiding these mental states and what leads to them is the intention of the precept as I see it. And of course the kamma that often follows.

As for your comment about abhorent actions being excused as "skillful means" I think that was uncalled for. For starters, skillful means are already present in Theravada as obviously different teachings are more suitable for different personalities and abilities (Sangiti Sutta). So inherently there are levels to practice and to explanation. In Dharma, as I learned it, ethics is the foundation (Six Paramitas). The intent of the Fifth Precept, as I see it, is primarily to avoid unwholesome mental states that tend to lead to compromising the ethics.

Also, my friend is not an alcoholic. He is a moderate drinker. He is addicted to smoking and this is something that he may one day want to explore in our garage chats. I don't know. But hope so.

_/|\_

PS Since you quote the Uposatha Sutta, may I ask if you eat after midday, listen to music or lie on high beds? Would you advocate these as strongly? Otherwise why quote selectively?
_/|\_
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Lazy_eye »

Winny wrote:"To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness"

Alcohol is included, isn't it? Do you still drink? :toast:
I drink occasionally -- a glass of beer or wine now and then, at family occasions or business socials, etc. However, I have not taken the precepts formally, and probably would not take this particular precept in a tradition that regarded it as a strict prohibition. I just don't have the discipline or inclination, though I respect those who do.

Being aware of the precept has certainly changed my view of alcohol, and generally speaking I not only avoid it, but don't particularly crave it.
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by dragonwarrior »

Drinkers should answer:
1. why are you addicted to alcohol? Is it just for fun/ kinda escape when you got stressed?
2. do you intend to stop your addiction? do you think you can beat alcoholism?

hope we all stay healthy
:anjali:
winny
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Lazy_eye »

Winny wrote:Drinkers should answer:
1. why are you addicted to alcohol? Is it just for fun/ kinda escape when you got stressed?
2. do you intend to stop your addiction? do you think you can beat alcoholism?

hope we all stay healthy
:anjali:
winny
Well, I guess we could get into a heady debate about how you define "addiction". I would describe my relationship to alcohol as "mild attachment". I have a stronger attachment to toasted bagels. :tongue:

Why am I unwilling to commit to giving it up completely? Probably because it's a sense pleasure and I still want the option of enjoying it from time to time.

Also because it's part of social life and there are occasions where I'd prefer to participate, in moderation.

Finally, because I don't currently see the drawbacks in this "flexible" approach, except for not being able to say that I follow the precepts. Actually, I do follow them, to the best of my present abilities. Perhaps this will become a more pressing issue as my practice deepens.

:namaste:
LE
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Jechbi »

My understanding is that it's a training rule one takes for oneself, not something that one imposes on another. The decision is always going to be, in this moment right now, what activity will help cultivate the causes and conditions for cessation of dukkha? In my view, these training rules are practical steps we can take to remind ourselves to watch this present moment. I'm probably just stating the obvious.

We all have our own bags to carry.

Metta
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Ben
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Ben »

Dan74 wrote:I think you are preaching to the converted here, Ben.
With respect, I don't think I am Dan.
There is no denying that alcohol is a factor is a vast number of tragedies.
This we agree on. Where we seem to diverge is that you do not believe that drinking alcohol creates negative kamma and continues to feed and support deep-rooted kilesas. Alayakilesas.
There is also no denying that different cultures handle it very differently. For example in Italy, where a glass of wine is almost obligatory at lunch, there is far less alcoholism than in most other European countries and positive side effects like lower cholesterol, etc, while in Northern Europe and Russia, the story is sadly very different.
With respect, its not relevant here. This is really a discussion on the fifth precept.
Your last paragraph is also unlikely to convince most of my colleagues who enjoy a quite glass of wine with their Saturday tea and don't kill people on the road or beat their wives afterwards. And quite rightly too.
I am not here to convince your colleagues, though I am surprised that some members of the health profession who deal with the effects of substance abuse continue to indulge in alcohol consumption.
Drinking, like every other activity, is vastly imbued with the social attitudes, context, beliefs and personal attributes of course.
It appears that you are saying that various social attitudes, contexts, beliefs and personal attributes trump sila. And I reject this categorically.
Can we use the above as argument for lying? stealing? committing various sexual misconducts? killing? We are talking about sila, sila which is the bedrock for the path, the foundation for liberation.
Have a look here, for example:

http://www.peele.net/lib/sociocul.html
Thank you for the link.
I am not trying to excuse or rationalise drinking. In fact for anyone with some experience with meditation it is usually obvious that even a small drink seriously impairs the ability to function, let alone function mindfully.
Absolutely, but not only when we are in meditation.
What I am questioning is your categorical approach that does not gel with the Dhamma as I understand it, your quotes notwithstanding.
This is where we disagree.
I think the key are the words "carelessness" and "heedlessness" in your citations. Avoiding these mental states and what leads to them is the intention of the precept as I see it. And of course the kamma that often follows.
If you are right, then the wording of the sila would be different. More like 'Don't become heedless and careless from taking intoxicants', instead, we see the word abstain
As for your comment about abhorent actions being excused as "skillful means" I think that was uncalled for.
I am merely calling it as I see it. I think it would be a grave matter of concern if a teacher is not upholding basic sila.
For starters, skillful means are already present in Theravada as obviously different teachings are more suitable for different personalities and abilities (Sangiti Sutta). So inherently there are levels to practice and to explanation.
And I will call it as I see it if its a theravada teacher or mahayana teacher. Don't conflate this as sectarian!
In Dharma, as I learned it, ethics is the foundation (Six Paramitas). The intent of the Fifth Precept, as I see it, is primarily to avoid unwholesome mental states that tend to lead to compromising the ethics.
Then how does one avoid unwholesome mental states when one indulges in an intoxicant? You have already conceded that even small amounts are deliterious.
Also, my friend is not an alcoholic. He is a moderate drinker. He is addicted to smoking and this is something that he may one day want to explore in our garage chats. I don't know. But hope so.
My apologies. But from your description of the ritual of sharing a keg - it seemed like an addiction issue.

_/|\_
PS Since you quote the Uposatha Sutta, may I ask if you eat after midday, listen to music or lie on high beds? Would you advocate these as strongly? Otherwise why quote selectively?
Dan, the five precepts are within the eight uposotha precepts. That is why I quoted the uposotha sutta. Its not a matter of selective quoting. And yes, I do uphold the eight precepts when on retreat. The precepts are there for your benefit.

Dan, if you have seen what I have seen - I am sure that like me, you wouldn't touch alcohol again. Life is very short and fickle Dan. At any moment we can be swepped away. I have decided what I want to devote my life to. And that is my family and the Dhamma. Nowhere have I seen in the Tipitaka anywhere where the Buddha says that the fifth precept can be dispensed with - or any of the sila for that matter.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Individual
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Individual »

Winny wrote:"To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness"

Alcohol is included, isn't it? Do you still drink? :toast:
Winny wrote:Drinkers should answer:
1. why are you addicted to alcohol? Is it just for fun/ kinda escape when you got stressed?
2. do you intend to stop your addiction? do you think you can beat alcoholism?

hope we all stay healthy
:anjali:
winny
I do think alcohol would be included, yes. I still drink on occasion.

My father is an alcoholic, and I think it's a bit ridiculous to refer to anybody who drink alcohol as an "alcoholic". My mother is not an alcoholic, but i have seen her act extremely inappropriately after only drinking a very small amount of alcohol. With some people, even small amounts make them extremely belligerent, obnoxious, and rude, while with other people, it just makes them relaxed and seems OK.

I do think it's best to abstain from alcohol, but I understand why people don't and can even imagine cases where using alcohol moderately as a short-term buffer against social anxiety or "icebreaker" might be useful. In moderation, the negative effects are negligible, about as bad as committing evil acts in one's dreams, and are balanced out by positive effects on health.

Moral absolutes aren't always reliable guides for behavior. Despite the fact that my father is a heavy smoker and drinker, he's in perfect health. One of his brothers, who has never smoked or drank alcohol, has been in the hospital for the past several years due to kidney failure. Statistically, it should be the other way around, given what alcohol does to the kidneys.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by Individual »

Lazy_eye wrote: Why am I unwilling to commit to giving it up completely? Probably because it's a sense pleasure and I still want the option of enjoying it from time to time.
And there is a danger in that. The suttas definitely regard all sensual pleasures as dangerous.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Re: About the fifth Śīla

Post by sherubtse »

Winny wrote:"To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness"

Alcohol is included, isn't it? Do you still drink? :toast:


:anjali:
winny
[/quote]

Nope, never touch the stuff. By far the easiest of the 5 precepts for me to keep, as I have always had a dislike of booze.

With metta,
Sherubtse
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