Moral decline in the west

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BlackBird
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by BlackBird »

pink_trike wrote:There is a natural rhythm to the world that isn't linear...it is more like a pulse or breathing:

rise, peak, pause, decline, peak, pause...repeat, over and over and over.

This was widely known as "the endless cycles of cycles" or "the cycles of time" in the ancient eastern world, and it was known in the ancient western hemisphere as "the burden of time". This pulse governs the recurring rising and falling in varying degrees of the entire phenomenal world, endlessly.

We're seeing decline and deterioration across the board - ecosystem, climate (not just Planet Earth), oceans, morals, economy, species, mental function, health, Earth's magnetic field and shield, etc... The entirety of the ancient world were aware of these endless periods of rise and decline. In our linear, ever-forward world we get freaked out by the decline part of the cycles and start pointing fingers and blaming - but it's just time for decline/deterioration again...and as a civilization we're clueless, lost, and unprepared to deal with it. As individuals we're unprepared and clueless how to deal with decline and deterioration of the microcosmic ecosystem that we know of as body, and we don't recognize the same pattern that takes place in the midstream because very few of us are trained to even look at the mind.

Geologists and climatologists are the most aware of these periods of decline of stability but our modern compartmentalized culture has made it taboo for them to connect the dots found in the geological records with patterns in history or any field of inquiry outside of their own - or in the collective mind. Ancient cultures advocated repose during periods of decline in order to minimize damage, and then fostered inspired activity during periods of regeneration...living with the cycles instead of outside of them and more at risk. Surrendering whims of the minds and living with and within the boundaries and cycles of time/space was considered to be a liberation from the constant grinding and scraping that comes from living outside of them, unaware of them, and being endlessly at their effect.
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enkidu
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by enkidu »

At the risk of being trite, "Samsara is suffering."

Whenever I notice that I am expressing disappointment over world events, I try to remind myself that this is a subtle expression of my attachment to Samsara; that it indicates that I do not have conviction in the suffering nature of Samsara and its causes.

Clinging to expectations about the conduct of Samsaric beings does not lead me to develop compassion for them and indicates that I do not hold Samsaric beings as motivated by the three poisons. It indicates that I believe lasting happiness and uninterrupted peace can and should be found in Samsara, and that non-suffering results should somehow arise from suffering causes.

So the lemons into lemonade here for me is to view atrocity and so on as indications of the suffering nature of Samsara and as strong motivation to practice in order to cease its causes.

Though, I have great difficulty.
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poto
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by poto »

pink_trike wrote: There are quite a few places - I'd have to go digging through my papers, but I recall that there is a distinct and separate layer of the archeological record of a highly advanced civilization in Pakistan - I think around 3100 BC in which there was were found no weaponry, no signs of kingship or armies, no prisons, an absence of skeletons with wound marks, no evidence of slaves, etc...no record of violence found in this large established city state. Archeologists are very thorough...they know what people ate for breakfast 5000 years ago. Also several sites in High Northern Europe. I'm sure the Google God can find some info for you.
I thought you might mention the Indus Valley civilization, also known to the Hindus as Rama. Before I became Buddhist I spent a great deal of time reading and studying ancient texts. I was one of those people who mistakenly thought the older the text the better. As such I did read a lot of Vedic texts. In those texts a great deal of information about an ancient civilization that existed in India was preserved, this was known to them as the civilization of Rama. If you read the Vedic texts you'll find plenty of accounts of wars and conflicts that existed within that civilization.

I am not so well versed on ancient Nordic civilization. I will attempt to read up on that. I am aware of the democratic tradition of the Vikings. However, I am also aware of their history of warfare. Can you point to a specific region or period where these peaceful times occurred so that I may narrow my search?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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pink_trike
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by pink_trike »

poto wrote: If you read the Vedic texts you'll find plenty of accounts of wars and conflicts that existed within that civilization.
What you refer to as "that era" is divided into several distinct eras each spanning a significantly long period of time, each with identifiable beginnings and endings. In the archeological record eras are usually separated by complete collapse and later rebuilt in the same area on top of the ruins of previous civilizations...sometimes as many as 20 distinctly different eras layered in the same area, one on top of the other. There is a separate and distinct era/layer/build of civilization preserved in the archeological record of that region that has been noted as free from evidence of violence from beginning to end.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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poto
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by poto »

pink_trike wrote:
poto wrote: If you read the Vedic texts you'll find plenty of accounts of wars and conflicts that existed within that civilization.
What you refer to as "that era" is divided into several distinct eras each spanning a significantly long period of time, each with identifiable beginnings and endings. In the archeological record eras are usually separated by complete collapse and later rebuilt in the same area on top of the ruins of previous civilizations...sometimes as many as 20 distinctly different eras layered in the same area, one on top of the other. There is a separate and distinct era/layer/build of civilization preserved in the archeological record of that region that has been noted as free from evidence of violence from beginning to end.
OK, let me see if I understand what you're trying to say.

You think that since archeologists didn't find evidence of violence for certain periods of time, that somehow these eras were devoid of violence? Furthermore, you make assumptions on human nature and extinct cultures based on a lack of data? Seems like a pretty bit leap you're making there. You seem like an intelligent fellow, which is why I'm having a hard time with what you're saying. It seems to me like you are trying to twist something to fit your preconceived notions. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Still you have not cited any actual papers or publications to backup your claims, which makes me think your claims are dubious.

IMHO, humans are born as ignorant beings. That ignorance gives rise to suffering and violence. Through the Dhamma, we are able to overcome our ignorance and subdue those violent impulses.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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pink_trike
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by pink_trike »

poto wrote: You think that since archeologists didn't find evidence of violence for certain periods of time, that somehow these eras were devoid of violence?

IMHO, humans are born as ignorant beings. That ignorance gives rise to suffering and violence. Through the Dhamma, we are able to overcome our ignorance and subdue those violent impulses.
The conclusions are those of highly trained archeologists using impeccable standards and subject to peer review over decades. I trust that they know what they're talking about.

If Buddhist ideology is inconsistent with modern research data, then it us up to Buddhism and it's believers to disprove the evidence. As you explore this subject, it may be helpful to set aside your belief that all human civilizations have been violent because humans are violent by nature and because only the Dharma prevents violence. The notion of "human nature" is a myth used to justify any number of unskillful and destructive habits. It is conditions that create violence...external and internal. Buddhists aren't the only people in the history of civilization that have learned to create the conditions that give rise to non-violence.

As for proof, I've learned about this in various settings and by reading over the last 30 years. If you want proof, you'll need to do research.

Also, you'll find that the field of anthropology will have even more evidence of (particularly autochthonous ) cultures that have had and do have an absence of violence and the infrastructures of violence.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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poto
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by poto »

pink_trike wrote:
poto wrote: You think that since archeologists didn't find evidence of violence for certain periods of time, that somehow these eras were devoid of violence?

IMHO, humans are born as ignorant beings. That ignorance gives rise to suffering and violence. Through the Dhamma, we are able to overcome our ignorance and subdue those violent impulses.
The conclusions are those of highly trained archeologists using impeccable standards and subject to peer review over decades. I trust that they know what they're talking about.

If Buddhist ideology is inconsistent with modern research data, then it us up to Buddhism and it's believers to disprove the evidence. As you explore this subject, it may be helpful to set aside your belief that all human civilizations have been violent because humans are violent by nature and because only the Dharma prevents violence. The notion of "human nature" is a myth used to justify any number of unskillful and destructive habits. It is conditions that create violence...external and internal. Buddhists aren't the only people in the history of civilization that have learned to create the conditions that give rise to non-violence.

As for proof, I've learned about this in various settings and by reading over the last 30 years. If you want proof, you'll need to do research.

Also, you'll find that the field of anthropology will have even more evidence of (particularly autochthonous ) cultures that have had and do have an absence of violence and the infrastructures of violence.
I did not say that the Dhamma was the only way to overcome violence, nor did I say the Dhamma prevents violence. I apologize if you mistook my statement to mean that. I was merely stating that it is one path to non-violence.

As to "human nature", I speak of causes and conditions. Humans are born ignorant, and that is a condition which can give rise to violence. It is natural that we humans are born with these causes and conditions and must work to overcome them. That is what I mean by human nature, the natural state in which we all come into being in this world.

While I recognize that some past peoples and civilizations may have created conditions that led to non-violence, that is still a far cry from being completely free from violence. You mention Autochthonous cultures, and this is likely where you are going wrong. Many of the indigenous cultures, were not peaceful. While they lacked the "infrastructures of violence" found in many other more developed civilizations, they still had crimes, violence and wars/conflicts within their societies. The noble savage myth is an invention of popular culture, not archeology.

This will be my last comment on this subject. Several times I asked for proof of your claims and you failed to provide it. Please understand that it's very unreasonable to expect me to do in depth research on a broad field of study like archeology, without providing specific references to investigate.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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pink_trike
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by pink_trike »

Many of the indigenous cultures, were not peaceful.
Obviously. I didn't suggest that all lindigenous cultures were peaceful...I said that some were peaceful. And I said that some civilizations in the archeological record have no evidence of violence or the infrastructures of violence. But if you're going to go legalistic and say that there likely was some sort of crime (an assumption on your part) then it will be hard to have a general conversation with you about this subject.

You might start your search in South America where there are still remnants of a couple of these peaceful cultures.

And I'll offer this for your consideration...I spent my summers growing up in a medium sized working class town in Northern Minnesota that built it's first official jail about a 15 years ago. For about 200 years this town had no need for a real jail. If someone got drunk and rowdy they'd stick em in the basement of the library until they sobered up. Murder and assault with intent to kill was unheard of, people left their doors unlocked day and night for decades. Cars weren't stolen. Kids didn't disappear. Robbery was unheard of. It was safe to walk the streets at all hours of the night, even for women. This was true for most of the 3 state area in that region at that time. There's no reason to believe that this wasn't the norm across broad portions of the world for extended periods of time, and this would be reflected in the geological records...as it is in many places.
Please understand that it's very unreasonable to expect me to do in depth research on a broad field of study like archeology, without providing specific references to investigate.
This expectation that you attribute to me is a complete fabrication of your mind. :rofl:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by jcsuperstar »

even extreamly violent cultures can go through periods of no violence, or limited violence,just look at japan, theyed have civil wars then centuries of peace then centuries of civil wars. also there are(were) matriarchal societies that dont even have the word for war in their language too and reseach into mother cities show that the ideas that people originally grouped together for power or by conquest is a mistake, people seemed to have orginally grouped together for reasons of trade

you dont need the dhamma for people to get along, pretty much all religions and some philosophies create whats needed for that, the dhamma isnt about us getting along in samsara but rather getting out of samsara.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Popo
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Re: Moral decline in the west

Post by Popo »

Here's a neat little page on the topic:

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/006259.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Steven Pinker wrote a good book showing that humanity has become significantly less violent over time. I've read Pinker and Singer on the topic and found their data and arguments convincing, but I haven't read any opposing arguments..
Is there any specific ancient culture that was without violence? Because the tendency seems to be far more violent deaths the farther you go back.
Theoretical approaches have their place and are, I suppose, essential but a theory must be tempered with reality.
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