Not sure if this has already been discussed already but thought id put it up just in case.
We all know that it is said that when one becomes a stream-winner that they are certain to attain nibbana in no less than seven lives. How is this possible though? If one dies and is reborn then they would have forgotten all the teachings, practice etc in the past existence so wouldnt they be starting again from scratch?
Entering the stream
Entering the stream
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
- Cittasanto
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Re: Entering the stream
from what I understand about it, it is they are or we are at that capacity, they don't need to know it or understand it (what ever it is) from birth but they would know and understand it from the first encounter, and be inclined to act in a manner of a stream enterer naturally?
suppose it is like Mozart playing the piano at an early age?
I may be wrong but I think that is accurate?
suppose it is like Mozart playing the piano at an early age?
I may be wrong but I think that is accurate?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Entering the stream
look at it this way. if i'm born in gaza and die at age 13 i'm never going to practice the dhamma, but if i'm born in chaing mai and become a novice at 13 i have a great chance to. i'm sure those on the path to being an arahant are just born in the right places to practice. they dont have to be born remembering the teachings from their past lives.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Re: Entering the stream
Most of the arahants in the suttas were initially ordinary people, then attained stream entry and then attained arahantship.clw_uk wrote:We all know that it is said that when one becomes a stream-winner that they are certain to attain nibbana in no less than seven lives. How is this possible though? If one dies and is reborn then they would have forgotten all the teachings, practice etc in the past existence so wouldnt they be starting again from scratch?
For example, the First Sermon states Kodanna attained stream entry and then became AnyaKondanya, meaning "Kondanna who knows".
Similarly, Upatissa was an ordinary person and upon listening to Asaji gained stream entry. Then after practising with the Buddha, Upatissa, namely Sariputta, attained arahantship.
It was not required of Kodanna, Sariputta or any other arahant to have futher lives to gain arahantship. Maha Kassapa attained arahantship in 14 days.
I would suggest seven lives represent seven fetters or seven types of becoming, 'jati' or 'abodes' that need to be overcome.
A stream enterer cuts three fetters and must uproot seven more fetters for arahantship.
With metta
Element
Re: Entering the stream
The first three fetters are completely eradicated at stream-entry. So one born a stream-entrant is starting out with three less fetters than you or I. That's a significant head-start, especially when you consider that one of those fetters is doubt about the Triple Gem.clw_uk wrote:so wouldnt they be starting again from scratch?
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Entering the stream
Hi Craig,
Also, although it is theoretically possible for a stream-enterer to be reborn as a human being, there don't seem to be any accounts of this happening in Pali literature. All the stream-enterers who fail to attain arahatta in the same life are reported to have been reborn in one or another of the heavenly realms. Being reborn in such places they have a perfect recall of their former life, and of the teachings, practice etc. that they had learned.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
One wouldn't be starting from scratch because the fetters abandoned in the life when stream-entry is attained remain abandoned throughout whatever subsequent lives remain. One wouldn't, for example, be able to fall into wrong view.clw_uk wrote:We all know that it is said that when one becomes a stream-winner that they are certain to attain nibbana in no less than seven lives. How is this possible though? If one dies and is reborn then they would have forgotten all the teachings, practice etc in the past existence so wouldnt they be starting again from scratch?
Also, although it is theoretically possible for a stream-enterer to be reborn as a human being, there don't seem to be any accounts of this happening in Pali literature. All the stream-enterers who fail to attain arahatta in the same life are reported to have been reborn in one or another of the heavenly realms. Being reborn in such places they have a perfect recall of their former life, and of the teachings, practice etc. that they had learned.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Re: Entering the stream
Dear Venerable,
Metta
Mike
Thank you for that information. Presumably it would make sense that a stream-enterer would normally have enough development of the Brahamaviharas to ensure that.Dhammanando wrote: Also, although it is theoretically possible for a stream-enterer to be reborn as a human being, there don't seem to be any accounts of this happening in Pali literature. All the stream-enterers who fail to attain arahatta in the same life are reported to have been reborn in one or another of the heavenly realms. Being reborn in such places they have a perfect recall of their former life, and of the teachings, practice etc. that they had learned.
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Metta
Mike
Re: Entering the stream
I know of monks in Thailand who have privately said that they were born in this life as stream-enterers. They had a very easy start and fast progress in their meditation, too. It seems like they just continued where they had left off the last time. One of them, for example, wanted to befriend some girls but every time he thought of them, their image changed into a decomposing corpse... so he did not get very far with that one. Instead he became a monk.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
- Dhammanando
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Re: Entering the stream
Hi Craig,
Also, although it is theoretically possible for a stream-enterer to be reborn as a human being, there don't seem to be any accounts of this happening in Pali literature. All the stream-enterers who fail to attain arahatta in the same life are reported to have been reborn in one or another of the heavenly realms. Being reborn in such places they have a perfect recall of their former life, and of the teachings, practice etc. that they had learned.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
[This is a re-post. I posted it twice before because it didn't appear the first time. Then I deleted one of the duplicated posts, but another mod simultaneously deleted the other one. ]
One wouldn't be starting from scratch because the fetters abandoned in the life when stream-entry is attained remain abandoned throughout whatever subsequent lives remain. One wouldn't, for example, be able to fall into wrong view.clw_uk wrote:We all know that it is said that when one becomes a stream-winner that they are certain to attain nibbana in no less than seven lives. How is this possible though? If one dies and is reborn then they would have forgotten all the teachings, practice etc in the past existence so wouldnt they be starting again from scratch?
Also, although it is theoretically possible for a stream-enterer to be reborn as a human being, there don't seem to be any accounts of this happening in Pali literature. All the stream-enterers who fail to attain arahatta in the same life are reported to have been reborn in one or another of the heavenly realms. Being reborn in such places they have a perfect recall of their former life, and of the teachings, practice etc. that they had learned.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
[This is a re-post. I posted it twice before because it didn't appear the first time. Then I deleted one of the duplicated posts, but another mod simultaneously deleted the other one. ]
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
- appicchato
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Re: Entering the stream
Unsubstantiated in the Suttas...that I'm familiar with...correct me if I'm wrong...seven fetters, in the human plane, that need to be eradicated...adding more is speculation, and, some may say, unnecessary...Element wrote:
I would suggest seven lives represent seven fetters or seven types of becoming, 'jati' or 'abodes' that need to be overcome.
Re: Entering the stream
It appears 'seven' was Buddha's lucky number.
Verily, monks, whosoever practices these four foundations of mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then one of these two fruits may be expected by him: highest knowledge (arahantship) here and now or if some remainder of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.
MN 10
Re: Entering the stream
There are many stream-entry suttas at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- appicchato
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Re: Entering the stream
It's your relating seven lives to seven fetters that I'm referring to...
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Re: Entering the stream
Hi Element,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
This isn't a tenable reading. Leaving aside those stream-enterers who go on to attain arahatta in the same life, the remainder were classed by the Buddha as being of three types: ekabījīs, kolaṅkolas and sattakhattuparamas; only the last of these is liable to continue for seven more lives, yet all sotāpannas have seven more fetters to overcome.Element wrote:I would suggest seven lives represent seven fetters or seven types of becoming, 'jati' or 'abodes' that need to be overcome.
A stream enterer cuts three fetters and must uproot seven more fetters for arahantship.
- Ekabījī
"What sort of person is single-seeded? Here a person, having completely destroyed the three fetters, becomes a stream-enterer; he is no more liable to fall into a woeful state, but is destined to succeed and has enlightenment as his final end; he having returned to the state of human existence makes an end of suffering. Such a person is said to be single-seeded."
Kolaṅkola
"What sort of person is he who transmigrates from family to family? Here a person having completely destroyed the three fetters, becomes a stream-enterer; he is no more liable to fall into a woeful state, but is destined to succeed, and has enlightenment as his final end; he running on and transmigrating through two or three families makes an end of suffering. Such a person is said to be one who migrates from family to family."
Sattakhattuparama
"What sort of person is he who undergoes rebirth not more than seven times? Here a person, having completely destroyed the three fetters, becomes a stream-enterer; he is no more liable to fall into a woeful state, but is destined to succeed and has enlightenment as his final end; he running on and transmigrating seven times amongst devas and men makes an end of suffering. Such a person is said to be one not undergoing rebirth more than seven times."
(Puggalapaññatti 16-17; Dutiyasikkhasutta AN. i. 232-3)
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Re: Entering the stream
Plus, a once-returner has five more fetters to eradicate.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.