How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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puthujjana
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by puthujjana »

enkidu wrote: My mind is far too feeble to make sense of the suffering nature of Samsara, karma and dependent origination without rebirth.
It's the same with my mind...
"Once you understand anatta, then the burden of life is gone. You’ll be at peace with the world. When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness and we can truly be happy."
- Ajahn Chah
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Kare
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by Kare »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kare,

Here's some discussion:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 11&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1160" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
Thank you. Those discussions are interesting. However, when I read (or rather, skimmed) through them, I could not see that the discussions touched the question of rebirth in the Paticcasamuppada, which very much hinges on the understanding of the Pali word jati. Did I overlook something?
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nowheat
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by nowheat »

catmoon wrote:I would like to try to focus this discussion about how far you can strip down Buddhism.

... it looks clear that Buddhist ethics can exist independently of rebirth doctrine and possibly karma doctrine too.

Which leaves me wondering : How would the abandonment of the concept of karma affect Buddhist ethics? Was Bhikku Bodhi correct, will the ethics stand without karma? Does a practice require more than Buddhist ethics to be called Buddhism?
The last argument I was trying to make on E-Sangha before it shut down was that, not only does Buddhism not need karma and rebirth, they are detrimental to the practice of Buddhism. I do not, however, propose leaving out karma in the sense of "intention matters" only karma in the sense of "counts towards your next rebirth". Are you suggesting, catmoon, that we leave out karma as intention as well?

Yes, a practice does require more than Buddhist ethics to be called Buddhism. Insofar as ethics guide what choices you make that will affect others, to be genuine Buddhist ethics requires that they are a natural outcome of direct insight. Buddhist ethics, unlike all the other ethical systems I'm familiar with, come from within one, as opposed to being a system applied from the outside. So for Buddhist practice to be genuine, it can't just be a system of ethics we are applying with intellect alone, from the outside. It requires the rest of the Eightfold Path, wisdom and concentration (view, resolve, effort, mindfulness, concentration) not just ethics.

:namaste:
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mikenz66
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by mikenz66 »

Kare wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kare,

Here's some discussion:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 11&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1160" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
Thank you. Those discussions are interesting. However, when I read (or rather, skimmed) through them, I could not see that the discussions touched the question of rebirth in the Paticcasamuppada, which very much hinges on the understanding of the Pali word jati. Did I overlook something?
I'm sure it's been hotly discussed somewhere. Perhaps also try the Rebirth Thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
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catmoon
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by catmoon »

nowheat wrote: The last argument I was trying to make on E-Sangha before it shut down was that, not only does Buddhism not need karma and rebirth, they are detrimental to the practice of Buddhism. I do not, however, propose leaving out karma in the sense of "intention matters" only karma in the sense of "counts towards your next rebirth". Are you suggesting, catmoon, that we leave out karma as intention as well?
(My bolding) I'm not suggesting anything! I just want to look at the minimal set of Buddhist principles, see what it might look like. All the same, let's suppose you eliminate karma entirely. I presume that will leave the right and wrong types of action intact. So it's clear that much of the ethical system could survive this radical surgery. It might lose moral force though, because a wrong action would not necessarily have unfortunate consequences. Rights actions would have no benefit, except by pure chance. To regain the lost moral force, one might attempt resurrect consequences through dependent origination. But I'm speculating all over the map here.

Yes, a practice does require more than Buddhist ethics to be called Buddhism. Insofar as ethics guide what choices you make that will affect others, to be genuine Buddhist ethics requires that they are a natural outcome of direct insight. Buddhist ethics, unlike all the other ethical systems I'm familiar with, come from within one, as opposed to being a system applied from the outside. So for Buddhist practice to be genuine, it can't just be a system of ethics we are applying with intellect alone, from the outside. It requires the rest of the Eightfold Path, wisdom and concentration (view, resolve, effort, mindfulness, concentration) not just ethics.

:namaste:
I think I get your drift. Basically you are saying Buddhism requires ethics and meditation. Without meditation, the ethics might become no more than an arbitrary and externally-imposed law. With meditation, the ethics can be internalized, or understood.
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by Kare »

mikenz66 wrote:
Kare wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kare,

Here's some discussion:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 11&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1160" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
Thank you. Those discussions are interesting. However, when I read (or rather, skimmed) through them, I could not see that the discussions touched the question of rebirth in the Paticcasamuppada, which very much hinges on the understanding of the Pali word jati. Did I overlook something?
I'm sure it's been hotly discussed somewhere. Perhaps also try the Rebirth Thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
23 pages! :reading: :jawdrop:
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nowheat
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by nowheat »

catmoon wrote:I'm not suggesting anything! I just want to look at the minimal set of Buddhist principles, see what it might look like. All the same, let's suppose you eliminate karma entirely. I presume that will leave the right and wrong types of action intact. So it's clear that much of the ethical system could survive this radical surgery. It might lose moral force though, because a wrong action would not necessarily have unfortunate consequences. Rights actions would have no benefit, except by pure chance. To regain the lost moral force, one might attempt resurrect consequences through dependent origination. But I'm speculating all over the map here.
If you remove the word karma altogether (which would not be a bad thing; it would reduce confusion) I'm just going to want to put "intention" in its place, because it seems to me that it's a fundamental piece of the basic teaching.
I think I get your drift. Basically you are saying Buddhism requires ethics and meditation. Without meditation, the ethics might become no more than an arbitrary and externally-imposed law. With meditation, the ethics can be internalized, or understood.
That's it exactly. Ethics emerges from having a deep understanding of the dhamma -- effectively, "Right View" -- which you're only going to get through meditation and mindfulness practices.

:namaste:
notself
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by notself »

pegembara wrote:"And who is the person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death?

"There is the case of the person who has abandoned passion, desire, fondness, thirst, fever, and craving for sensuality. Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought does not occur to him, 'O, those beloved sensual pleasures will be taken from me, and I will be taken from them!' He does not grieve, is not tormented; does not weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. This is a person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death....

"Furthermore, there is the case of the person who has no doubt or perplexity, who has arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma. Then he comes down with a serious disease. As he comes down with a serious disease, the thought occurs to him, 'I have no doubt or perplexity. I have arrived at certainty with regard to the True Dhamma.' He does not grieve, is not tormented; does not weep, beat his breast, or grow delirious. This, too, is a person who, subject to death, is not afraid or in terror of death.

"These, brahman, are four people who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death."

AN 4.184 PTS: A ii 173
Abhaya Sutta: Fearless
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you for posting this. I have had a serious disease and faced death. That disease has a possibility of recurrence so about once a year I am retested. With each test I face my mortality and fear of death. With each test my fear of death lessens. I hope over the next years my health situation will further assist me in my understanding of dukkha, rebirth and the rest of the dhamma.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
pegembara
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by pegembara »

notself wrote:
pegembara wrote:
Thank you for posting this. I have had a serious disease and faced death. That disease has a possibility of recurrence so about once a year I am retested. With each test I face my mortality and fear of death. With each test my fear of death lessens. I hope over the next years my health situation will further assist me in my understanding of dukkha, rebirth and the rest of the dhamma.
So sorry to hear about your situation. This test all of us will face sooner or later.

Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl chronicles his experiences as a concentration camp inmate

“An active life serves the purpose of giving man the opportunity to realize values in creative work, while a passive life affords him the opportunity to obtain fulfillment in experiencing beauty, art, or nature.

But there is also purpose in that life which is almost barren of both creation and enjoyment and which admits of but one possibility of high moral behavior: namely, in man’s attitude to his existence, an existence restricted by external forces.

A creative life and a life of enjoyment are banned to him.

But not only creativeness and enjoyment are meaningful.

If there is a meaning in life at all, then there must be a meaning in suffering.

Suffering is an ineradicable part of life, even as fate and death.

Without suffering and death human life cannot be complete.”

"We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

"Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom."

"Live as if you were living already for the second time and as if you had acted the first time as wrongly as you are about to act now!"

"We can discover this meaning in life in three different ways: (1) by creating a work or doing a deed; (2) by experiencing a something or encountering someone; and (3) by the attitude we take toward unavoidable suffering."

"Man does not simply exist but always decides what his existence will be, what he will become in the next moment."

"When we are no longer able to change a situation - just think of an incurable disease such as inoperable cancer - we are challenged to change ourselves


With Metta
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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