Hi everyone,
More on the wrong eightfold path, from The Connected Discourses.
"At Savatthi. Bhikkhus, I will teach you the wrong way and the right way. Listen to that ... And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong way ? It is wrong view ... wrong concentration. This is called the wrong way. And what, bhikkhus, is the right way ? It is right view .... right concentration. This is called the right way". 23 (3) The Way (1). page 1535.
" At Savatthi. Bhikkhus, whether for a layperson or one gone forth, I do not praise the wrong way. Whether it is a layperson or one gone forth who is practising wrongly, because of undertaking the wrong way of practice he does not attain the method, the Dhamma that is wholesome. And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong way ? It is : wrong view .... wrong concentration". 24 (4) The Way (2) page 1535-6.
"At Savatthi. Bhikkhus, I will teach you the inferior person and the superior person. Listen to that ... And what, bhikkhus, is the inferior person ? Here someone is of wrong view, wrong intention ... wrong concentration. This is called the inferior person". ( superior person has right view etc.) 25 (5) The inferior person (1) page 1536.
26 (6) goes further. It speaks of the inferior person and the one who is worse than the inferior person. The inferior person has wrong view .... wrong concentration. The one who is worse has these eight plus wrong knowledge and wrong liberation. So we have here a tenfold wrong path which is contrasted with the tenfold right path. Wrong knowledge and wrong liberation represent a puthujjana monk who deludes himself that he is enlightened.(They make the declaration just like real arahants ).
31 (1) "Bhikkhus, I will teach you wrong practice and right practice". You can no doubt guess what is said.
" Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing by means of which the unarisen noble eightfold path arises and the arisen noble eightfold path goes to fulfilment so effectively as by this : good friendship". 77 (1) Good Friend.
So it would seem that one is automatically on the wrong path unless one can cause the noble eightfold path to arise. I wonder how one does that ?
Best wishes, Vincent.
A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
I have a great deal of respect for the amount of time and consideration you've put into reading suttas and working up evidence for your theory which, I hope I understand correctly (and summarizing), is that there is a secret teaching embedded in the Pali canon about a higher path. However, it is clear to me that what you are seeing is not a secret teaching at all, though I can understand how it could look that way.
The thing is, you're reading translations. All we have are translations. Nothing we have is a transcript word-for-word. When you have people writing down "What the Buddha said" or even memorizing it in their time, they are giving us their understanding of what the Buddha said. What's conveyed is only as good as their understanding. I would expect that almost every time there was a change made, it was made in the best interests of better conveying what the translators believed to be the Buddha's teaching.
However, that said, a great deal of what the Buddha taught was deeply intertwined with the times he lived in and times change -- fast. The context in which he said various things has been lost or misunderstood or ignored; the background setting seems to have been fairly faithfully carried forward but usually dismissed as irrelevant. (I am deeply grateful for the setting being retained even when dismissed, as I can see that it will help us sort out what was actually said.)
The Buddha said he taught "with an open hand" not "a teacher's hand" (the “teacher's hand” was common among Brahmins and hid the higher teachings given only to the best students), so it is not likely that the Buddha put secret teachings in what you're reading. What is far more likely is that what the Buddha taught quite clearly and explicitly was that there is a higher path to liberation and that is *his* path. There is a tainted path to liberation and that is the path of regular moral people whose path puts them on higher ground than that of rogues and fools, but is still not as good as the path the Buddha offered. This tainted path has been misinterpreted from very early times as part of the path the Buddha taught and is now taught widely as mainstream Buddhism. So you are in a sense right that there were two levels of paths that the Buddha talked about. There was whatever religion the common folk practiced, which, being a tolerant fellow, he did not denigrate as long as the effort did result in someone leading a good life of consideration for others; and there was the untainted right view, which was his teaching. It's just that his discussion of these has been so muddied by translations that it seems like there's a hidden message in there, but the Buddha didn't try to hide it, it's just been obscured.
The thing is, you're reading translations. All we have are translations. Nothing we have is a transcript word-for-word. When you have people writing down "What the Buddha said" or even memorizing it in their time, they are giving us their understanding of what the Buddha said. What's conveyed is only as good as their understanding. I would expect that almost every time there was a change made, it was made in the best interests of better conveying what the translators believed to be the Buddha's teaching.
However, that said, a great deal of what the Buddha taught was deeply intertwined with the times he lived in and times change -- fast. The context in which he said various things has been lost or misunderstood or ignored; the background setting seems to have been fairly faithfully carried forward but usually dismissed as irrelevant. (I am deeply grateful for the setting being retained even when dismissed, as I can see that it will help us sort out what was actually said.)
The Buddha said he taught "with an open hand" not "a teacher's hand" (the “teacher's hand” was common among Brahmins and hid the higher teachings given only to the best students), so it is not likely that the Buddha put secret teachings in what you're reading. What is far more likely is that what the Buddha taught quite clearly and explicitly was that there is a higher path to liberation and that is *his* path. There is a tainted path to liberation and that is the path of regular moral people whose path puts them on higher ground than that of rogues and fools, but is still not as good as the path the Buddha offered. This tainted path has been misinterpreted from very early times as part of the path the Buddha taught and is now taught widely as mainstream Buddhism. So you are in a sense right that there were two levels of paths that the Buddha talked about. There was whatever religion the common folk practiced, which, being a tolerant fellow, he did not denigrate as long as the effort did result in someone leading a good life of consideration for others; and there was the untainted right view, which was his teaching. It's just that his discussion of these has been so muddied by translations that it seems like there's a hidden message in there, but the Buddha didn't try to hide it, it's just been obscured.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
Hi nowheat,
On the higher path and whether it was secret, I have changed my view slightly. I thought that there was no explicit talk about this higher path, but I was wrong. It is stated very clearly in M 117 where it is called the "noble path" and is said to be "supramundane and free of asavas".
Also I agree with you that I am not yet seeing the teachings clearly because of confusion due to poor translations.
Are you reading the Nikaya's in Pali ?
Best wishes, Vincent.
On the higher path and whether it was secret, I have changed my view slightly. I thought that there was no explicit talk about this higher path, but I was wrong. It is stated very clearly in M 117 where it is called the "noble path" and is said to be "supramundane and free of asavas".
Also I agree with you that I am not yet seeing the teachings clearly because of confusion due to poor translations.
Are you reading the Nikaya's in Pali ?
Best wishes, Vincent.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
Vinasp, can I ask an unloaded question ?
What is your main meditation practice ?
What is your main meditation practice ?
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
I haven't yet sat down and learned Pali formally so I guess I have to say no.vinasp wrote:Hi nowheat,
On the higher path and whether it was secret, I have changed my view slightly. I thought that there was no explicit talk about this higher path, but I was wrong. It is stated very clearly in M 117 where it is called the "noble path" and is said to be "supramundane and free of asavas".
Also I agree with you that I am not yet seeing the teachings clearly because of confusion due to poor translations.
Are you reading the Nikaya's in Pali ?
Best wishes, Vincent.
Last edited by nowheat on Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
Hi PeterB,
I think I have already said that I do not practice any meditation. I think that understanding the teachings is the way. Of course, one needs to see into the workings of ones own mind as well. Insight is unpredictable. I am happy for others to do whatever they find helpful.
Best wishes, Vincent.
I think I have already said that I do not practice any meditation. I think that understanding the teachings is the way. Of course, one needs to see into the workings of ones own mind as well. Insight is unpredictable. I am happy for others to do whatever they find helpful.
Best wishes, Vincent.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
So to be clear Vinasp in your view an intellectual understanding of translations of the Pali Canon, or an understanding your minds reactions to those translations, is sufficient in itself to bring you to Enlightenment ?
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
Hi everyone,
A bit more on the wrong path and what it leads to. What does it lead to ? Nothing in most cases, but sometimes a puthujjana monk has some strange experience and thinks that he has become enlightened.
Now on that occasion a number of bhikkhus had declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One thus : "We understand : Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being."
( Sunakkhatta hears about this and goes to the Blessed One )
Sunakkhatta says : "I have heard, venerable sir, that a number of bhikkhus have declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One. Did they do so rightly or are there some bhikkhus here who declare final knowledge because they overestimate themselves?"
"When those bhikkhus, Sunakkhatta, declared final knowledge in my presence, there were some bhikkhus who declared final knowledge rightly and there were some who declared final knowledge because they overestimated themselves". MN 105 . Middle Length Discourses, Bhikkhu Bodhi.
This passage does not say that the monks were still puthujjanas, but other passages suggest that this did occur. How else are we to understand the extra two limbs of the wrong eightfold path - wrong knowledge and wrong liberation ? This must have made things rather difficult for novice monks, if half of those claiming to be arahants where only deluded puthujjanas.
But surely, you say, all such claims would be tested and officially approved.
Were they ? There are sutta's which show monks being questioned, but I do not recall one in which a monks claim is explicitly denied.
Best wishes, Vincent.
A bit more on the wrong path and what it leads to. What does it lead to ? Nothing in most cases, but sometimes a puthujjana monk has some strange experience and thinks that he has become enlightened.
Now on that occasion a number of bhikkhus had declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One thus : "We understand : Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being."
( Sunakkhatta hears about this and goes to the Blessed One )
Sunakkhatta says : "I have heard, venerable sir, that a number of bhikkhus have declared final knowledge in the presence of the Blessed One. Did they do so rightly or are there some bhikkhus here who declare final knowledge because they overestimate themselves?"
"When those bhikkhus, Sunakkhatta, declared final knowledge in my presence, there were some bhikkhus who declared final knowledge rightly and there were some who declared final knowledge because they overestimated themselves". MN 105 . Middle Length Discourses, Bhikkhu Bodhi.
This passage does not say that the monks were still puthujjanas, but other passages suggest that this did occur. How else are we to understand the extra two limbs of the wrong eightfold path - wrong knowledge and wrong liberation ? This must have made things rather difficult for novice monks, if half of those claiming to be arahants where only deluded puthujjanas.
But surely, you say, all such claims would be tested and officially approved.
Were they ? There are sutta's which show monks being questioned, but I do not recall one in which a monks claim is explicitly denied.
Best wishes, Vincent.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
PeterB wrote:So to be clear Vinasp in your view an intellectual understanding of translations of the Pali Canon, or an understanding your minds reactions to those translations, is sufficient in itself to bring you to Enlightenment ?
Bump.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
Why are we discussing Vinasp's personal practice and understanding of enlightenment rather than his theory?PeterB wrote:PeterB wrote:So to be clear Vinasp in your view an intellectual understanding of translations of the Pali Canon, or an understanding your minds reactions to those translations, is sufficient in itself to bring you to Enlightenment ?
Bump.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
Do you think that they are different things Nowheat ?nowheat wrote:Why are we discussing Vinasp's personal practice and understanding of enlightenment rather than his theory?PeterB wrote:PeterB wrote:So to be clear Vinasp in your view an intellectual understanding of translations of the Pali Canon, or an understanding your minds reactions to those translations, is sufficient in itself to bring you to Enlightenment ?
Bump.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
thinking...thinking...thinkingnowheat wrote:Why are we discussing Vinasp's personal practice and understanding of enlightenment rather than his theory?PeterB wrote:PeterB wrote:So to be clear Vinasp in your view an intellectual understanding of translations of the Pali Canon, or an understanding your minds reactions to those translations, is sufficient in itself to bring you to Enlightenment ?
Bump.
I'm with PeterB here. Nirvana is the unconditioned. You'll never come to a full understanding through the intellect. Most of the OP's theory just seems to involve redefining technical terms. You can change the labels all you want, but you're just swapping sankharas around. He posits that there may be another way to enlightenment beyond the Noble Eightfold Path, and yet freely admits that he's spent a whole 20 years studying the suttas and never bothered trying to follow the 8-Fold Path himself to see if it actually works. In particular, I'm talking about #'s 6 through 8: Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration. Now I'll freely admit that I'm incredibly lazy and don't meditate as much as I'd like to, but it blows my mind that someone would be so obviously interested in Buddhism but have no interest in trying it out. I hope I'm not sounding too mean, but some practical experience through meditation would make everything so much clearer.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
I think they are dogs and Cocker Spaniels, PeterB. Theories and intellectual understanding are the Cockers, Enlightenment is dog.PeterB wrote:Do you think that they are different things Nowheat ?nowheat wrote: Why are we discussing Vinasp's personal practice and understanding of enlightenment rather than his theory?
Now will you please answer my question?
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
My answer to your question was in my question to you Nowheat. But to spell it out, I think Vinasps theory only has meaning in terms of its practical application, not simply as an abstract theory. Therefore his theory and his practice are intimately associated. In fact inseperable. You are of course free to take a different view.
Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon
Hello all,
The original Pali is available and well understood by scholars and Bhikkhus in the Theravada Tradition. Many lay people take university subjects in Pali, understand it well, and also teach Pali. It is not a secret esoteric language. The OP has had TWENTY YEARS in which to study the original texts in the original language, but has chosen not to do so.
The Buddha specifically said there were no hidden teachings. Nothing hidden in the closed fist of the teacher.
This is not a 'new interpretation of the Pali Canon' - it is a personal foible of the OP, not Dhamma, and, basically, one would be better setting it aside.
metta and karuna
Chris
The original Pali is available and well understood by scholars and Bhikkhus in the Theravada Tradition. Many lay people take university subjects in Pali, understand it well, and also teach Pali. It is not a secret esoteric language. The OP has had TWENTY YEARS in which to study the original texts in the original language, but has chosen not to do so.
The Buddha specifically said there were no hidden teachings. Nothing hidden in the closed fist of the teacher.
This is not a 'new interpretation of the Pali Canon' - it is a personal foible of the OP, not Dhamma, and, basically, one would be better setting it aside.
metta and karuna
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---