What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Whilst not specifically the question asked, in the context of the forums here at Dhamma Wheel, the Mahavihara Classical section is to be representative of Theravada as explained by the ancient Theravada commentarial tradition.

The Modern Theravada forums include that Classical perspective but also include the full breadth of Theravada perspectives that exist in modern times.

Any alternative perspectives that contradict the commentarial positions, are excluded from these Classical Theravada forums.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by Ben »

Thank you Mike for your kind correction.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by DNS »

In my opinion, a very important current event, the bhikkhuni ordination issue seen here in this thread:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 5&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

provides some examples of some of the differences between the so-called Classical and Modern. The Modern view point includes Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sujato, and Bhikkhu Bodhi and use what some might call a "modern" interpretation to allow full bhikkhuni ordinations to occur once again (as they did during the time of Buddha), while the vast majority (nearly all?) of those holding the Classical view feel that the Vinaya is the final say and the monks could not agree what are minor rules at the First Council, end of story.
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by BlackBird »

David N. Snyder wrote: provides some examples of some of the differences between the so-called Classical and Modern. The Modern view point includes Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sujato, and Bhikkhu Bodhi and use what some might call a "modern" interpretation to allow full bhikkhuni ordinations to occur once again (as they did during the time of Buddha), while the vast majority (nearly all?) of those holding the Classical view feel that the Vinaya is the final say and the monks could not agree what are minor rules at the First Council, end of story.
Hi David

I'm not sure the heart of the issue has much to do with the Vinaya at all, but perhaps more the cultural bodies the govern the Sanghas at present.

Anyway I'm sorry, my post is off topic here.

:anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by Ben »

Hi David
David N. Snyder wrote:In my opinion, a very important current event, the bhikkhuni ordination issue seen here in this thread:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 5&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

provides some examples of some of the differences between the so-called Classical and Modern. The Modern view point includes Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sujato, and Bhikkhu Bodhi and use what some might call a "modern" interpretation to allow full bhikkhuni ordinations to occur once again (as they did during the time of Buddha), while the vast majority (nearly all?) of those holding the Classical view feel that the Vinaya is the final say and the monks could not agree what are minor rules at the First Council, end of story.
Like you, I consider it a significant event as well.
However, and with great respect, I think its simplistic to label those who are in-favour of Bhikkhuni ordination as 'modern' and those who oppose it as 'Classical'.

One of the things with raising the Bhikkhuni Ordination event is that none of us are in a position of having all the facts. The situation appears to be quite delicate with potential far-reaching effects. My opinion is that which-ever camp we support, we should out of a sense of compassion and loving kindness, focus on supporting not only those sangha and lay members who share our particular stand, but those who disagree with us.
We're all the sons and daughters of the Buddha.
With metta and karuna

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by DNS »

Ben wrote: Like you, I consider it a significant event as well.
However, and with great respect, I think its simplistic to label those who are in-favour of Bhikkhuni ordination as 'modern' and those who oppose it as 'Classical'.
It is just one of the issues and from what I have seen, most of those who might be called or labeled Classical, tend to lean against the ordinations and among those who lean toward supporting the ordinations, they tend to be called or labeled Modern, just from my limited observations. But there are other issues too.
Ben wrote: The situation appears to be quite delicate with potential far-reaching effects. My opinion is that which-ever camp we support, we should out of a sense of compassion and loving kindness, focus on supporting not only those sangha and lay members who share our particular stand, but those who disagree with us.
We're all the sons and daughters of the Buddha.
With metta and karuna
Well said.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi David,

I agree with BlackBird and Ben. You appear to appropriate the label "modern" to mean those you agree with. While Bhikkhu Bodhi certainly points out where the ancient, and not so ancient, commentaries may have overlooked something, he's certainly someone who takes them seriously. Similarly, he quotes modern scholarship as suggesting that the Abhidhamma in it's present form was developed after the Buddha's parihibbana, but certainly does not reject it. Regarding Bhikkhuni ordination he has not suggested rejecting texts, but has expressed the opinion that the Tipitaka and Commentaries do not form a basis for denying the ordinations.

Furthermore, one could argue that Ajahn Chah represents an aspect of "modern Buddhism". So are the decisions of his successors "modern" or "classical"?

Metta
Mike
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by BlackBird »

I should also note, no disrespect at all intended there David :)
:group:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by DNS »

mikenz66 wrote: I agree with BlackBird and Ben. You appear to appropriate the label "modern" to mean those you agree with. While Bhikkhu Bodhi certainly points out where the ancient, and not so ancient, commentaries may have overlooked something, he's certainly someone who takes them seriously. Similarly, he quotes modern scholarship as suggesting that the Abhidhamma in it's present form was developed after the Buddha's parihibbana, but certainly does not reject it.
Hi Mike,

As opposed to seeing it as Buddhavacana, which would seem to make it a 'Modern' approach.
Regarding Bhikkhuni ordination he has not suggested rejecting texts, but has expressed the opinion that the Tipitaka and Commentaries do not form a basis for denying the ordinations.
:thumbsup: Yes, you're right, I agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi on this. And from my limited observations, those who take this position tend to be called or labeled 'Modern' but I am open to seeing examples of monastic and lay people who take the 'Classical' label and also take this position.
Furthermore, one could argue that Ajahn Chah represents an aspect of "modern Buddhism". So are the decisions of his successors "modern" or "classical"?
It depends upon which view they take. They don't all agree, for example, apparently Ajahn Sumedho is attempting a very rigid garudhamma that is more severe than the original, while Ajahn Sujato opposes that list and they are both students of Ajahn Chah.

I don't think the Classical and Modern views are all that black-and-white and I believe there is considerable overlap. I probably fall within the 'Modern' view, but on some issues, someone might see me as quite Classical, including, but not limited to the Triple Gem, monasticism, the Patimokkha, and others.
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 1107
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by Eko Care »

Dugu wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:09 am Can anyone give me a run down on the significant difference between the two?
The difference is their Priority given to the following Four Authorities.

Classical Theravada:

1. Sutta (Meanings are derived according to Acariyavada)
2. Sutta Anuloma (Meanings are derived according to Acariyavada)
3. Acariyavada (Ancient Atthakata existed before Acariya Buddhaghosa summarized)
4. Attanomati (Views of Anyone Later than the Ancient Atthakata)

Modern Theravada:
  • Places [4] over [3] :(Considers the wisdom of some later or modern people to be higher than Acariyavada)
  • Places [4] over Part of [1] and [2] : (Interprets some Suttas according to a non-classical way)

In conclusion Modern Theravada is not Theravada. It is Attanomati-vada.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:04 pm In conclusion Modern Theravada is not Theravada. It is Attanomati-vada.
In conclusion, creating junk arguments leads to a junk conclusion.

Your post revealed nothing other than your prejudices against non-sectarian followers of the Buddha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 1107
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:23 pm Your post revealed nothing other than your prejudices against non-sectarian followers of the Buddha.
Whether you like it or not, there is a classical way already set up in the books.

Anything other than the Atthakatha, is considered Attanomati.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by DNS »

Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:12 pm Anything other than the Atthakatha, is considered Attanomati.
Wrong again. The "Modern Theravada" Buddhists place emphasis on the Suttas, could even be called Suttanta. They focus on the EBTs, not the later, modern writers. It is arbitrarily called "Modern Theravada" there is no official term for those who prefer the Suttas or EBTs.

They focus on the first five Nikayas of the Pali Canon, not necessarily rejecting the rest.
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 1107
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by Eko Care »

DNS wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm Wrong again. The "Modern Theravada" Buddhists place emphasis on the Suttas, could even be called Suttanta.
It is not Suttanta. Suttantikas had not any different intrpretation.
DNS wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm They focus on the EBTs, not the later, modern writers.
They focus on what they defined as EBTs.
DNS wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm They focus on the first five Nikayas of the Pali Canon
But with different interpretations (many of them).
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What's the difference between Classical and Modern Theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
DNS wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm They focus on the first five Nikayas of the Pali Canon, not necessarily rejecting the rest.
Exactly. A more accurate account of the difference is...


Classical Theravada

1. Sutta (Including Vinaya and Abhidhamma)
2. Sutta Anuloma (Meanings derived from #1)
3. Acariyavada (Ancient Commentary)
4. Attanomati (Not-so-ancient Commentary)


Modern Theravada

1. Sutta (including Vinaya)
2. Sutta Anuloma (Meanings derived from #1)
3. Attanomati - any other potentially relevant source, including Abhidhamma, Acariyavada, Attanomati and contemporary scholarship


The above could be summarised by saying that Classical Theravada gives the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries an explicit degree of authority and precedence (over other opinions and perspectives), whereas Modern Theravada does not. Come to think of it, that's pretty much what the guidelines for this site's Classical section say.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Post Reply