Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:20 am

Hi Bill,

I'm extremely sorry to hear that. Do you have a reference? The last message here:
http://forestsangha.org/index.php?optio ... 1&Itemid=8
led me to hope that there would not be any action before further discussion:
Meanwhile we can trust in the power of our commitment to right practice and our shared aspiration for concord and understanding.

Bhikkhu Bodhi even posted a supportive letter here:
http://sites.google.com/site/supportbhi ... kkhu-bodhi
However, I note that though Ajahn Sujato has not posted any more text since November 1, his blog has turned black:
http://sujato.wordpress.com/

I sincerely hope that the situation will be resolved.

Metta
Mike

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Postby bodhabill » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:30 am

Hi Mike

Link is http://santifm1.0.googlepages.com/, the homepage of Bhante Sujato and Santi Forest Monastery

With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:41 am

Thanks Bill,

There is now an extended article at Ajahn Sujato's blog:
http://sujato.wordpress.com/

Mike

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:51 am

Dear Bill,

I presume from your location that you are familiar with Santi Forest Monastery. From the list at http://forestsangha.org/index.php?optio ... 0&Itemid=9 It seems that it does not have a direct affiliation with the other overseas Ajahn Chah monasteries. Is it considered a branch of Bodhinyana?

Mike

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Postby BlackBird » Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:53 am

Venerable Sujato's latest post entitled 'Black Sunday'

This is a very sad day indeed for the Triple Gem... For the life of me I never thought it would come to this.

May you all be well, and steadfast in your practice.
:group:

Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination

Postby bodhabill » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:18 am

Hi Mike

My understanding is that Santi has no affiliation with Wat Pah Pong but is strongly linked to Bodhinyana Monastery in Perth

A link from the Santi website may help http://santifm1.0.googlepages.com/history

Thank you for your help in posting the link http://sujato.wordpress.com/ which has additional information regarding this matter

As also mentioned there is a site which is gathering support for the Bhikkhuni Ordination at http://www.supportbhikkhunis.org/

With metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:27 am

Excellent response letter by Bhikkhu Bodhi. :bow:

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:54 am

This is an important time for us as practitioners, to see just how far reaching and detrimental the effects of a schism are on the Sasana at large. This is an important lesson in harmony. Events are playing out before our very eyes and history is being written.

The whole world suffers because of this event, give it some thought and see how far reaching it really is.



:anjali:
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Jechbi » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:05 am

Wow.

This passage is interesting, from here (will launch .pdf document):
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:There is nothing in the text itself, or elsewhere in the Pāli Vinaya,
that lays down a rule stating categorically that, should the Bhikkhunī Sangha become extinct,
the bhikkhus are prohibited from falling back on the original allowance the Buddha
gave them to ordain bhikkhunīs and confer upasampadā on their own to resuscitate the
Bhikkhunī Sangha.
To me this seems to be the crucial point: Only if there were such a clear
prohibition would we be entitled to say that the bhikkhus are overstepping the bounds
of legitimacy by conducting such an ordination. In the absence of such a decree in the
text of the Vinaya Piṭaka and its commentaries, the judgment that an ordination by
bhikkhus is in violation of the Vinaya is only an interpretation.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BudSas » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:08 am

BlackBird wrote:This is an important time for us as practitioners, to see just how far reaching and detrimental the effects of a schism are on the Sasana at large. This is an important lesson in harmony. Events are playing out before our very eyes and history is being written.

The whole world suffers because of this event, give it some thought and see how far reaching it really is.


Personally, I don't believe this is a "schism", and I don't think "the world suffers because of this event" either.

I agree with Ven Gavesako's previous comment: "I think it is more a matter of loyalty to certain Asian institutions as opposed to direct access to the Vinaya itself and taking the Vinaya as the only measuring stick for actions of the Sangha."

BDS

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:29 am

Hi BudSas

BudSas wrote:Personally, I don't believe this is a "schism"


What was once one institution, is no longer one institution.
What was once in concord, is now divided.
What kind of label would you put on it?
Labels are labels, call 'em what you like :)

BudSas wrote:and I don't think "the world suffers because of this event" either.


Perhaps this needs to be elaborated upon. Events of this nature harm not only those directly involved, but also the wider monastic communities, people are liable to take sides, or hold views as to who is right and wrong in a situation, and this will naturally extend out to us lay people who may feel sadness or resentment. Those new to the Dhamma who come across such news might feel put off by it, thinking "This doctrine claims to put compassion, tolerance and harmony to the fore, and yet such actions have taken place. Those who formally may have supported an institution may now be undecided as to how to proceed with their support.

Disunity, disharmony is to the detriment of the Sasana on the whole. If the Buddha Sasana is for the benefit of the entire world, to it's aid, then it would be fair inference to say that anything that harms the Buddha Sasana, harms the world.

The very fact that you and I have a difference of opinion on this matter is proof enough to me.

EDIT: I don't want it to be seen as though I hold a particular view on the matter, I'm just trying to look at it objectively and say: here is the nature of it, how can we learn from it. If anyone at all feels I have overstepped my bounds, then please do not hesitate to instruct me on how to proceed.

With metta all
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:51 am

Hi BudSas,
BudSas wrote:Personally, I don't believe this is a "schism", and I don't think "the world suffers because of this event" either.

I have benefited from teachings from various members of the Wat Pah Pong overseas monasteries, including Ajahn Brahm and Ajahn Tiradhammo (who is resident here in New Zealand). In addition to Blackbird's concerns, what worries me is the possible effect of these events on support and cooperation, and hence the long-term survival of these monasteries, which are an important source of Dhamma in the West (at least over here...). Perhaps that will not be a problem. I certainly hope so.

Metta
Mike

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BudSas » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:27 am

More news on the issue have been added at Ven Sujato's blog:

=> http://sujato.wordpress.com/

I'm sure that we'll know more in the coming days.

BDS

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby zavk » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:00 am

Dear friends

This is not to trivialize the concerns about potential disunity in the Sangha. However, I cannot help but wonder how those newly ordained bhikkhunis are doing amidst this storm. I imagine that they are grappling with difficult feelings. So I'd like to make two comments:


    1.) I wonder if the bhikkhunis are feeling a sense of rejection or even a sense of guilt over the turn of events. It is all too common for human beings to experience such feelings when things appear to go wrong around them. So I think that even as we keep the Sangha in mind, we should not forget these bhikkhunis, whom I believe are feeling the impact of this situation more accutely than anyone else. It is also likely that women of the Dhamma (aspiring bhikkhunis and laywomen) are grappling with this. So let us keep them in hearts too. :group:

    2.) Ajahn Sujato raised the issue of sexism in his blog. Whether this situation is the result of sexist attitudes or not, I cannot say. Nevertheless, we cannot ignore this issue. I think it behooves us to reflect on the issue of sexism in the Dhamma. I have no intention of accusing anyone of sexism. Sexist tendencies are just that--tendencies. They do not belong to anyone but are just conditions. This situation presents us with a good opportunity to recognise and reflect on these conditions so that we do not get blindly led by them. From my observations, the majority of the members here on DW are male (I am). In light of these events, we could perhaps reflect on how our relationship to the Dhamma has been shaped by our gender identity, and how we might have taken that for granted (at the expense of those who do not fit into our gender-specific views).

In any case, if it is as Bhikkhu Bodhi suggests, that the bhikkhuni ordination was carried out with wholesome intentions (and not just a means to rail against tradition), then I have faith that things will eventually turn out right. In my personal experience of the Dhamma, wholesome intentions have always yield wholesome results, even if those results are not immediately apparent. Again, this is not to trivialize the very real concerns facing the Sangha. I am just doing what I can by placing my trust in the Dhamma.

:anjali:
With metta,
zavk

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:19 am

Hi zavk,
zavk wrote:So I think that even as we keep the Sangha in mind, we should not forget these bhikkhunis, whom I believe are feeling the impact of this situation more accutely than anyone else.

Thank you so much for reminding us of this. I would like to keep this in mind, not speculate too much about the motivations behind various actions, and spread metta to all.

The four who took Bhikkhuni ordination have been 10-precept nuns at Dhammasara for some time, Ajahn Vayama since 1985 (in Sri Lanka). She used to give roughly monthly talks at BSWA
Dhamma Talks: http://www.bswa.org/audio/podcast/DhammaTalks.rss.php
Sutta Study: http://www.bswa.org/audio/podcast/SuttaStudy.rss.php
and it might be nice to listen to some of them, particularly the Dhamma Talks that refer to ancient nuns:
Free In The Heart
Saturday, 22 December 2007 6:00 p.m.
Topics of this talk are enlightened nuns, Sangamitha Theri, Christmas, Buddhist dichotomy of cetovimutti (liberation through mind) and panyavimutti (liberation through wisdom) as well as cause and effect.

Bhikkhuni Abhirupa Nanda
Saturday, 17 December 2005 6:00 p.m.
Ajahn Sister Vayama tells the stories of a vain nun at the time of the Buddha, and King Asoka's daughter who took the female Buddhist monastic tradition from India to Sri Lanka. Implicit in these stories is the equal opportunity that both men and women have to realise enlightenment.

Advice To The Bhikkhunis
Saturday, 18 December 2004 6:00 p.m.
Advice To The Bhikkhunis

Taming The Untamed: The Enlightened Nun Dantika
Saturday, 20 December 2003 6:00 p.m.

Metta :heart:
Mike

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Renegade » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:59 am

Friends in forum

For some time now, Ajahns Brahm & Sujato have behaved & taught in ways not in tune with the ways, teachings & emphasis of Ajahn Chah.

Jhanas, rebirth, reincarnation, psychic powers, seeing past lives & so forth, have been the emphasis of these monks.

Seeking financial benefaction is also an accusation they have subjected themselves to.

These two monks have started their own sect. To be expelled from the Wat Pa Pong tradition is in tune with Dhamma.

Let them be on their own now, as their kamma has dictated & intended.

Please, let us be free from sadness.

The Renegade.

:guns:

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:36 am

Dear Renegade.

Disharmony is never in tune with the Dhamma, friend. It does not have the flavour of dispassion, but the flavour of passion, of entanglement, of pernicious views.

For your own benefit - Don't stir this pot.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby wise&wise » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:20 am

Dear Dhamma Friends,
I listened to a talk by Aj. Brahm, enjoyable and inspiring. Also heard the news about Bhikkhuni ordination I was surprised. Then learnt that he expelled from wpp sangha, I did not surprised. Because if you looked in to wpp standard it made good western ajhans it did not happened overnight, they maintained a good standard setup by aj. cha for the present world requirements. aj. Brahm did not get his ability from Cambridge; he got this from wpp, living under good teachers. If you look at those bhikkhunies, have any kind of protection form bhikkhuni sangha as Aj. Brahm got. They left alone them self and do not have a teacher take dependent. Even sister vayama been 24 years as a 10 precept nun that not give here to live without a teacher as a bhikkhuni she is just one week older bhikkhuni. That mean she has to live under bhikkhuni teacher. If any one of those bhikkhunies commit an offence that they need to confess to the sangha how they going to do that, they got only four bhikkhunies. When you look at the practical difficulties’ the decision made by wat pa pong is correct and no reason to blame. Blame goes to Aj. Bram and who participate to that ordination without concerning the consent from wat pa pong sangha.
with boundless metta.
:anjali:

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodhabill » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:10 am

Hi David
David thank you letting all interested of Bhikkhu Bodhi's support to the Bhikkhuni Ordination http://www.supportbhikkhunis.org/ and thank you for your letter at the same site regarding the history of the Bhikkhuni ordinations

With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby bodhabill » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:31 am

Hi Renegade

For some time now, Ajahns Brahm & Sujato have behaved & taught in ways not in tune with the ways, teachings & emphasis of Ajahn Chah.
Jhanas, rebirth, reincarnation, psychic powers, seeing past lives & so forth, have been the emphasis of these monks


Funny, I thought the Buddha taught most of these things, except of the reincarnation bit, perhaps you should enlighten us more on these radical teachings, was Ajahn Chah in tune with his teachers or a just a little bit of a rebel himself learning and applying the Dhamma his way

Seeking financial benefaction is also an accusation they have subjected themselves to.


Interesting, again I challenge you to substantiate your claim, in no area, website, or at the monasteries have I seen or heard any talk of there being a financial benefit in this matter

These two monks have started their own sect. To be expelled from the Wat Pa Pong tradition is in tune with Dhamma.
Let them be on their own now, as their kamma has dictated & intended.


My friend, perhaps you need to have a fresh look at the Dhamma, being expelled for doing something the Buddha approved of I suggest is definitely not in tune with the Dhamma

I, and I'm sure all the supporters of the newly ordained Bhikkhuni's thank you pointing out kamma

With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm


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