The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
adamposey
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:16 pm

The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by adamposey »

I've heard two interpretations of the precept of "abstaining from alcohol." Basically: "Don't drink at all." and the other interpretation of "drink, but don't get drunk."

I'm just curious what the texts say, and how we should reconcile this with cultural and geographical norms. For instance, I am a 3rd generation Italian . In my family alcohol is not consumed for the intention of getting drunk, nor for any kind of enjoyment, but simply because it is a fine part of our culture. In Italy itself the wine flows more freely than drinking water.

I understand the purpose of the rule, and I've heard the stories behind it, supposedly, but I still wonder if it is a rule that is perhaps more easy to follow in, say, India than it is in, say, Italy. Correct me if I'm wrong but the buddha only established this training rule after one of his followers was rewarded by villagers with alcohol for defeating a powerful naga, correct?

Related matter: What position, if any, do the buddhist texts take on tobacco? (I don't smoke, but I'm now curious).
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Adam,

The easy part first... tobacco is not a violation of the precepts.

OK... for the fifth precept..
Suramerayamajjapamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami:
I observe the precept of abstaining from intoxicants that cloud the mind and cause carelessness.
Now, I'm not entirely sure if 'intoxicants' is a modern or a literal translation, but the essence of it is that any consumable which reduces mindfulness (sati), reduces shame (hirī) and reduces the fear of wrongdoing (ottappa) constitutes a violation of the precepts.

If is not considered a violation however if the alcohol is consumed for medicinal purposes as part of a medicinal preparation.

So yes, the 'casual drink' is a violation of the precepts because it reduces these factors (even if only minimally), but not as severe a violation as getting completely trashed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
adamposey
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:16 pm

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by adamposey »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Adam,

The easy part first... tobacco is not a violation of the precepts.

OK... for the fifth precept..
Suramerayamajjapamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami:
I observe the precept of abstaining from intoxicants that cloud the mind and cause carelessness.
Now, I'm not entirely sure if 'intoxicants' is a modern or a literal translation, but the essence of it is that any consumable which reduces mindfulness (sati), reduces shame (hirī) and reduces the fear of wrongdoing (ottappa) constitutes a violation of the precepts.

If is not considered a violation however if the alcohol is consumed for medicinal purposes as part of a medicinal preparation.

So yes, the 'casual drink' is a violation of the precepts because it reduces these factors (even if only minimally), but not as severe a violation as getting completely trashed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I don't know about the geographical makeup of India very well, but I suspect the Bhikkus might have had some trouble living in Italy or France. :P
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Adam,
adamposey wrote:I don't know about the geographical makeup of India very well, but I suspect the Bhikkus might have had some trouble living in Italy or France. :P
As long as the laypeople are educated on the precepts, they would not offer alcohol to a bhikkhu. Quite possibly they are offered alcohol in Italy and France on occasion by those who do not know better, but would have to decline the offer as unacceptable.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by Individual »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Adam,

The easy part first... tobacco is not a violation of the precepts.

OK... for the fifth precept..
Suramerayamajjapamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami:
I observe the precept of abstaining from intoxicants that cloud the mind and cause carelessness.
Now, I'm not entirely sure if 'intoxicants' is a modern or a literal translation, but the essence of it is that any consumable which reduces mindfulness (sati), reduces shame (hirī) and reduces the fear of wrongdoing (ottappa) constitutes a violation of the precepts.
Why wouldn't nicotine fall under this same criteria?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
adamposey
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:16 pm

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by adamposey »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Adam,
adamposey wrote:I don't know about the geographical makeup of India very well, but I suspect the Bhikkus might have had some trouble living in Italy or France. :P
As long as the laypeople are educated on the precepts, they would not offer alcohol to a bhikkhu. Quite possibly they are offered alcohol in Italy and France on occasion by those who do not know better, but would have to decline the offer as unacceptable.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes, in Italy the default is wine because the straight water isn't really drinking quality. Today this is made easier by bottled water, but even a few hundred years ago drinking the water in places like Italy or Mexico could make you quite ill. Wine was drinkable because the alcohol made it safe.. so.. people drank a lot of ales, wines, and other low-alcohol drinks because they kind of had to. Today this is more of a cultural truth than a necessity, but it IS still true that the wine in Italy flows much more freely than water. In fact, water in those places can be quite expensive to drink.

Also: Can we move this thread? I realize that the classical theravada section is not appropriate for this. Could it be relocated to the lounge, or dhammic discussion?
Last edited by adamposey on Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
adamposey
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:16 pm

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by adamposey »

Individual wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Adam,

The easy part first... tobacco is not a violation of the precepts.

OK... for the fifth precept..
Suramerayamajjapamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami:
I observe the precept of abstaining from intoxicants that cloud the mind and cause carelessness.
Now, I'm not entirely sure if 'intoxicants' is a modern or a literal translation, but the essence of it is that any consumable which reduces mindfulness (sati), reduces shame (hirī) and reduces the fear of wrongdoing (ottappa) constitutes a violation of the precepts.
Why wouldn't nicotine fall under this same criteria?
I almost feel like this is a precept that could be taken quite far in today's world. If we were to avoid intoxicants, or any kind of taken substance that would potentially reduce mindfulness, this would almost absolutely come to include refined sugar, or any kind of snack food, as well as caffeine, etc.,

I would say that these things reduce mindfulness by doing the opposite of what alcohol does. Rather than depressing the control centers of the brain these kinds of products provoke a state of anxiety in the body.
User avatar
Tex
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:46 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by Tex »

Yes, smoking a cigarette is not a violation of the precept.

Briefly though, it's worth noting that the intention of the fifth precept is to avoid substances which can lead to heedlessness (of the other other precepts). While the act of smoking a cigarette is not a violation (and the act of drinking a beer is, because of its direct influence on us), when one becomes addicted to cigarettes he will inevitably find himself in situations where he cannot smoke.

Any hardcore smoker who has been stuck on a long plane flight knows exactly how quickly withdrawals set in, and how much shorter our fuse gets, and how much that can add to the challenge of practicing right speech.

Just a thought from an ex-smoker...

:focus:
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by pink_trike »

adamposey wrote: I'm just curious what the texts say, and how we should reconcile this with cultural and geographical norms.

Related matter: What position, if any, do the buddhist texts take on tobacco? (I don't smoke, but I'm now curious).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... h08-6.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cultural or geographic norms are just habits of mind that have been concretized in the collective mind. Drinking beer and hard liquors is a cultural/geographic norm in the United States - my extended family drank hard liquor and beer though it was "not consumed for the intention of getting drunk, nor for any kind of enjoyment, but simply because it is a fine part of our culture"...it was indulged in the same way that wine is in Italy. No meaningful difference, except that Italy's drinking habits are differently romanticized.

Casual use of alcohol is inconsistent with the Dharma path because it overstimulates the sensory systems, and clouds awareness...which is the exact opposite of what the Dharma advocates and supports - calming the the senses and clearing/expanding awareness.

The making of fermented beverages is dated back to around 7000 BC - it was primarily used as a means for extracting essences from herb to create medicines and health tonics, or as a substitute for impure drinking water. Likely the casual use of these health tonics eventually came to overshadow their medicinal uses.

Re: tobacco...I'm not aware of any call to avoid it in Buddhism. From my own experience though, having smoked up to 3 packs a day when young and smoked for 10 years, there is an intoxication that takes place as a result of smoking. The more we practice, the more aware of it we become.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by jcsuperstar »

there are some monks in thailand that are very anti smoking, but rolled herbs to be smoked for medicial reasons is kosher for monks, and tobaco came to thailand as a medicine so well, its just a sort of game of pointing fingers to say this monk is bad this one is good, i've yet to see a thai person speak ill of ajahn chah, and he smoked so :shrug:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by Individual »

adamposey wrote: I almost feel like this is a precept that could be taken quite far in today's world.
Perhaps it should?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Individual,
Individual wrote:
adamposey wrote: I almost feel like this is a precept that could be taken quite far in today's world.
Perhaps it should?
Well if you took the bhikkhus 227 precepts, I'm sure there'd be precepts that resemble what that might look like.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17188
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote:
Individual wrote:
adamposey wrote: I almost feel like this is a precept that could be taken quite far in today's world.
Perhaps it should?
Well if you took the bhikkhus 227 precepts, I'm sure there'd be precepts that resemble what that might look like.
"While smoking has a negative effect on the body it has little or no effect on consciousness and thus from the Buddhist perspective has no moral significance. A person can be kind, generous and honest and yet smoke. Thus, although smoking is inadvisable from the point of view of physical health it is not contrary to the fifth Precept. Smoking is very common in all Buddhists lands although in 2005 Bhutan was the first country in the world to ban it. In Burma, Thailand and Cambodia monks commonly smoke, but in Sri Lanka it is considered unacceptable for them to do so in public. However, Sri Lankan monks will chew tobacco."
from: BuddhismAtoZ.com

The above quote from Ven. Dhammika is primarily referring to lay people and the 5 precepts. A monk has the 227 precepts. One that I can think of right off, is the prohibition on storing food and possessions other than the requisites. Cigarettes could be seen as violating this precept, if held or used by a monk or nun.

According to the Vinaya, food, which we all need to survive cannot be stored because it could become a possession to get attached to, but cigarettes are not something needed for survival. All the more reason, in my opinion, that monastics probably should not be possessing, storing, and smoking cigarettes.

I know Ajahn Chah is highly revered and I have also heard that he smoked cigarettes. Did he smoke all the way to the end? Or did he give up cigarettes at some point? If so, at what age?
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi David,

I thought I recalled that at some point Ajahn Chah forbade his monks from smoking. Not because of the health or attachment risks, but because he didn't like the lay people in the poor area where his monasteries were located to be burdened by buying cigarettes for the monks...

Mike
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: The Casual Drink Or About That One Precept...

Post by Jechbi »

adamposey wrote:I'm just curious what the texts say, and how we should reconcile this with cultural and geographical norms.
I'm not aware of any sutta materials that advocate the "moderate drinking" approach to the precept, but maybe someone who takes that approach can point to such material?

With regard to cultural norms, I think it's amazing the reactions one gets when one chooses to give up alcohol, or when one suggests that giving up alcohol might be a good idea as a personal choice. In my experience, some people immediately assume you're advocating prohibition, and that you want to impose this non-alcohol-use policy on others. And that's just for starters.

The constant offers of a little glass of wine, or a beer, or (in some countries) a shot of vodka are impossible to avoid. Champagne on New Year's Eve, or at a wedding, or some other celebration. At a certain point it becomes downright anti-social to decline. I've seen monks (non-Theravada) leading toasts at social occasions.

What is this social fixation with alcohol? When you start to notice it and pay attention, it really is amazing. There are enormous social pressures to keep on drinking.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Post Reply