Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird »

Hi BudSas
BudSas wrote: Personally, I don't believe this is a "schism"
What was once one institution, is no longer one institution.
What was once in concord, is now divided.
What kind of label would you put on it?
Labels are labels, call 'em what you like :)
BudSas wrote: and I don't think "the world suffers because of this event" either.
Perhaps this needs to be elaborated upon. Events of this nature harm not only those directly involved, but also the wider monastic communities, people are liable to take sides, or hold views as to who is right and wrong in a situation, and this will naturally extend out to us lay people who may feel sadness or resentment. Those new to the Dhamma who come across such news might feel put off by it, thinking "This doctrine claims to put compassion, tolerance and harmony to the fore, and yet such actions have taken place. Those who formally may have supported an institution may now be undecided as to how to proceed with their support.

Disunity, disharmony is to the detriment of the Sasana on the whole. If the Buddha Sasana is for the benefit of the entire world, to it's aid, then it would be fair inference to say that anything that harms the Buddha Sasana, harms the world.

The very fact that you and I have a difference of opinion on this matter is proof enough to me.

EDIT: I don't want it to be seen as though I hold a particular view on the matter, I'm just trying to look at it objectively and say: here is the nature of it, how can we learn from it. If anyone at all feels I have overstepped my bounds, then please do not hesitate to instruct me on how to proceed.

With metta all
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi BudSas,
BudSas wrote: Personally, I don't believe this is a "schism", and I don't think "the world suffers because of this event" either.
I have benefited from teachings from various members of the Wat Pah Pong overseas monasteries, including Ajahn Brahm and Ajahn Tiradhammo (who is resident here in New Zealand). In addition to Blackbird's concerns, what worries me is the possible effect of these events on support and cooperation, and hence the long-term survival of these monasteries, which are an important source of Dhamma in the West (at least over here...). Perhaps that will not be a problem. I certainly hope so.

Metta
Mike
BudSas
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BudSas »

More news on the issue have been added at Ven Sujato's blog:

=> http://sujato.wordpress.com/

I'm sure that we'll know more in the coming days.

BDS
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zavk
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by zavk »

Dear friends

This is not to trivialize the concerns about potential disunity in the Sangha. However, I cannot help but wonder how those newly ordained bhikkhunis are doing amidst this storm. I imagine that they are grappling with difficult feelings. So I'd like to make two comments:

  • 1.) I wonder if the bhikkhunis are feeling a sense of rejection or even a sense of guilt over the turn of events. It is all too common for human beings to experience such feelings when things appear to go wrong around them. So I think that even as we keep the Sangha in mind, we should not forget these bhikkhunis, whom I believe are feeling the impact of this situation more accutely than anyone else. It is also likely that women of the Dhamma (aspiring bhikkhunis and laywomen) are grappling with this. So let us keep them in hearts too. :group:

    2.) Ajahn Sujato raised the issue of sexism in his blog. Whether this situation is the result of sexist attitudes or not, I cannot say. Nevertheless, we cannot ignore this issue. I think it behooves us to reflect on the issue of sexism in the Dhamma. I have no intention of accusing anyone of sexism. Sexist tendencies are just that--tendencies. They do not belong to anyone but are just conditions. This situation presents us with a good opportunity to recognise and reflect on these conditions so that we do not get blindly led by them. From my observations, the majority of the members here on DW are male (I am). In light of these events, we could perhaps reflect on how our relationship to the Dhamma has been shaped by our gender identity, and how we might have taken that for granted (at the expense of those who do not fit into our gender-specific views).
In any case, if it is as Bhikkhu Bodhi suggests, that the bhikkhuni ordination was carried out with wholesome intentions (and not just a means to rail against tradition), then I have faith that things will eventually turn out right. In my personal experience of the Dhamma, wholesome intentions have always yield wholesome results, even if those results are not immediately apparent. Again, this is not to trivialize the very real concerns facing the Sangha. I am just doing what I can by placing my trust in the Dhamma.

:anjali:
With metta,
zavk
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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi zavk,
zavk wrote:So I think that even as we keep the Sangha in mind, we should not forget these bhikkhunis, whom I believe are feeling the impact of this situation more accutely than anyone else.
Thank you so much for reminding us of this. I would like to keep this in mind, not speculate too much about the motivations behind various actions, and spread metta to all.

The four who took Bhikkhuni ordination have been 10-precept nuns at Dhammasara for some time, Ajahn Vayama since 1985 (in Sri Lanka). She used to give roughly monthly talks at BSWA
Dhamma Talks: http://www.bswa.org/audio/podcast/DhammaTalks.rss.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sutta Study: http://www.bswa.org/audio/podcast/SuttaStudy.rss.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and it might be nice to listen to some of them, particularly the Dhamma Talks that refer to ancient nuns:
Free In The Heart
Saturday, 22 December 2007 6:00 p.m.
Topics of this talk are enlightened nuns, Sangamitha Theri, Christmas, Buddhist dichotomy of cetovimutti (liberation through mind) and panyavimutti (liberation through wisdom) as well as cause and effect.

Bhikkhuni Abhirupa Nanda
Saturday, 17 December 2005 6:00 p.m.
Ajahn Sister Vayama tells the stories of a vain nun at the time of the Buddha, and King Asoka's daughter who took the female Buddhist monastic tradition from India to Sri Lanka. Implicit in these stories is the equal opportunity that both men and women have to realise enlightenment.

Advice To The Bhikkhunis
Saturday, 18 December 2004 6:00 p.m.
Advice To The Bhikkhunis

Taming The Untamed: The Enlightened Nun Dantika
Saturday, 20 December 2003 6:00 p.m.
Metta :heart:
Mike
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Renegade »

Friends in forum

For some time now, Ajahns Brahm & Sujato have behaved & taught in ways not in tune with the ways, teachings & emphasis of Ajahn Chah.

Jhanas, rebirth, reincarnation, psychic powers, seeing past lives & so forth, have been the emphasis of these monks.

Seeking financial benefaction is also an accusation they have subjected themselves to.

These two monks have started their own sect. To be expelled from the Wat Pa Pong tradition is in tune with Dhamma.

Let them be on their own now, as their kamma has dictated & intended.

Please, let us be free from sadness.

The Renegade.

:guns:
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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird »

Dear Renegade.

Disharmony is never in tune with the Dhamma, friend. It does not have the flavour of dispassion, but the flavour of passion, of entanglement, of pernicious views.

For your own benefit - Don't stir this pot.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
wise&wise
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by wise&wise »

Dear Dhamma Friends,
I listened to a talk by Aj. Brahm, enjoyable and inspiring. Also heard the news about Bhikkhuni ordination I was surprised. Then learnt that he expelled from wpp sangha, I did not surprised. Because if you looked in to wpp standard it made good western ajhans it did not happened overnight, they maintained a good standard setup by aj. cha for the present world requirements. aj. Brahm did not get his ability from Cambridge; he got this from wpp, living under good teachers. If you look at those bhikkhunies, have any kind of protection form bhikkhuni sangha as Aj. Brahm got. They left alone them self and do not have a teacher take dependent. Even sister vayama been 24 years as a 10 precept nun that not give here to live without a teacher as a bhikkhuni she is just one week older bhikkhuni. That mean she has to live under bhikkhuni teacher. If any one of those bhikkhunies commit an offence that they need to confess to the sangha how they going to do that, they got only four bhikkhunies. When you look at the practical difficulties’ the decision made by wat pa pong is correct and no reason to blame. Blame goes to Aj. Bram and who participate to that ordination without concerning the consent from wat pa pong sangha.
with boundless metta.
:anjali:
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bodhabill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill »

Hi David
David thank you letting all interested of Bhikkhu Bodhi's support to the Bhikkhuni Ordination http://www.supportbhikkhunis.org/ and thank you for your letter at the same site regarding the history of the Bhikkhuni ordinations

With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm
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bodhabill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill »

Hi Renegade
For some time now, Ajahns Brahm & Sujato have behaved & taught in ways not in tune with the ways, teachings & emphasis of Ajahn Chah.
Jhanas, rebirth, reincarnation, psychic powers, seeing past lives & so forth, have been the emphasis of these monks
Funny, I thought the Buddha taught most of these things, except of the reincarnation bit, perhaps you should enlighten us more on these radical teachings, was Ajahn Chah in tune with his teachers or a just a little bit of a rebel himself learning and applying the Dhamma his way
Seeking financial benefaction is also an accusation they have subjected themselves to.
Interesting, again I challenge you to substantiate your claim, in no area, website, or at the monasteries have I seen or heard any talk of there being a financial benefit in this matter
These two monks have started their own sect. To be expelled from the Wat Pa Pong tradition is in tune with Dhamma.
Let them be on their own now, as their kamma has dictated & intended.
My friend, perhaps you need to have a fresh look at the Dhamma, being expelled for doing something the Buddha approved of I suggest is definitely not in tune with the Dhamma

I, and I'm sure all the supporters of the newly ordained Bhikkhuni's thank you pointing out kamma

With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm
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gavesako
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by gavesako »

If people want to talk about Schism in the Pali Vinaya, they could start with some suggestions here:

http://mulesika.googlepages.com/schismi ... arabstract" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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pilgrim
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by pilgrim »

While I support the bhikkhuni ordination, I can't help but be dissapointed at the turn of events. Why didn't Ajahn Brahm wait until this matter was discussed at the WAM in December? Did Wat Pah Pong advise AB that this punitive action is a possible consequence? I'm aware that we do not know the whole story but it seems that the current situation could be avoided.

I also do not appreciate the way Sujato's blog (Nov 3rd entry) was written. Although he clearly supports AB, there was no need to portray the disagreeing monks as though they are all ignorant jerks especially in a public blog.

All in all, a major dissapointment. Even though I continue to support AB, Ajahn Sujato and the Bhikkhuni sangha, the joy in doing so is measurably less.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by tiltbillings »

gavesako wrote:If people want to talk about Schism in the Pali Vinaya, they could start with some suggestions here:

http://mulesika.googlepages.com/schismi ... arabstract" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Where is the full paper? It looks quite good.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cooran
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by cooran »

pilgrim wrote:While I support the bhikkhuni ordination, I can't help but be dissapointed at the turn of events. Why didn't Ajahn Brahm wait until this matter was discussed at the WAM in December? Did Wat Pah Pong advise AB that this punitive action is a possible consequence? I'm aware that we do not know the whole story but it seems that the current situation could be avoided.

I also do not appreciate the way Sujato's blog (Nov 3rd entry) was written. Although he clearly supports AB, there was no need to portray the disagreeing monks as though they are all ignorant jerks especially in a public blog.

All in all, a major dissapointment. Even though I continue to support AB, Ajahn Sujato and the Bhikkhuni sangha, the joy in doing so is measurably less.
Hello pilgrim,

The whole point of the now cancelled Abbots meeting in Perth in December was to respectfully and fully discuss the question of Bhikkhuni Ordination ~ and the climate was very positive, all were working together with this as an aim.

Can you imagine if there had been chopping and changing in anything to do with the Vinaya over the centuries without deep consideration and respect for all cultural and dhammic perspectives?

Jumping the gun in this unfortunate way has nothing to do with' "We are the heroes, the wonderful Supporters of Bhikkhuni Ordination" ... those "others" are not."'

It carries with it for many of us, rather another connotation of 'bull-dozing', 'taking over' and 'attention seeking'.

May the rift be healed and this not cause further splitting and negativity.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS »

Chris wrote: Jumping the gun in this unfortunate way has nothing to do with' "We are the heroes, the wonderful Supporters of Bhikkhuni Ordination" ... those "others" are not."'
Hi Chris,

So are you saying, it is your opinion, that they "jumped the gun" with the bhikkhuni ordinations last month?
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