Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1416
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: England

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby gavesako » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:27 pm

If people want to talk about Schism in the Pali Vinaya, they could start with some suggestions here:

http://mulesika.googlepages.com/schismi ... arabstract
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1002
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pilgrim » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:33 pm

While I support the bhikkhuni ordination, I can't help but be dissapointed at the turn of events. Why didn't Ajahn Brahm wait until this matter was discussed at the WAM in December? Did Wat Pah Pong advise AB that this punitive action is a possible consequence? I'm aware that we do not know the whole story but it seems that the current situation could be avoided.

I also do not appreciate the way Sujato's blog (Nov 3rd entry) was written. Although he clearly supports AB, there was no need to portray the disagreeing monks as though they are all ignorant jerks especially in a public blog.

All in all, a major dissapointment. Even though I continue to support AB, Ajahn Sujato and the Bhikkhuni sangha, the joy in doing so is measurably less.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20095
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:43 pm

gavesako wrote:If people want to talk about Schism in the Pali Vinaya, they could start with some suggestions here:

http://mulesika.googlepages.com/schismi ... arabstract

Where is the full paper? It looks quite good.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 7815
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:43 pm

pilgrim wrote:While I support the bhikkhuni ordination, I can't help but be dissapointed at the turn of events. Why didn't Ajahn Brahm wait until this matter was discussed at the WAM in December? Did Wat Pah Pong advise AB that this punitive action is a possible consequence? I'm aware that we do not know the whole story but it seems that the current situation could be avoided.

I also do not appreciate the way Sujato's blog (Nov 3rd entry) was written. Although he clearly supports AB, there was no need to portray the disagreeing monks as though they are all ignorant jerks especially in a public blog.

All in all, a major dissapointment. Even though I continue to support AB, Ajahn Sujato and the Bhikkhuni sangha, the joy in doing so is measurably less.


Hello pilgrim,

The whole point of the now cancelled Abbots meeting in Perth in December was to respectfully and fully discuss the question of Bhikkhuni Ordination ~ and the climate was very positive, all were working together with this as an aim.

Can you imagine if there had been chopping and changing in anything to do with the Vinaya over the centuries without deep consideration and respect for all cultural and dhammic perspectives?

Jumping the gun in this unfortunate way has nothing to do with' "We are the heroes, the wonderful Supporters of Bhikkhuni Ordination" ... those "others" are not."'

It carries with it for many of us, rather another connotation of 'bull-dozing', 'taking over' and 'attention seeking'.

May the rift be healed and this not cause further splitting and negativity.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8310
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:37 pm

Chris wrote:Jumping the gun in this unfortunate way has nothing to do with' "We are the heroes, the wonderful Supporters of Bhikkhuni Ordination" ... those "others" are not."'


Hi Chris,

So are you saying, it is your opinion, that they "jumped the gun" with the bhikkhuni ordinations last month?

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10833
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:40 pm

The official statement from Wat Pah Pong is now on the Forest Sangha site as a PDF, along with comments from Wat Nanachat.
http://forestsangha.org/index.php?optio ... 1&Itemid=8
The statement from Wat Nanachat concludes:
Time only will tell if the bhikkhuni ordination at Bodhinyana monastery in October 2009 will be seen as a key breakthrough in the acceptance of a Theravada bhikkhuni order, or as an overly hasty and confrontational move that alienated many of those it was intended to persuade.

One hopes, of course, that it will be the former rather than the latter...

Metta :heart:
Mike

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 7815
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:58 pm

Hello David, Mike, all,

If it was on the Agenda for the December meeting, it ought to have been left until then. Thank you Mike for keeping us all abreast of developments in this matter.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8310
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:01 pm

mikenz66 wrote:The statement from Wat Nanachat concludes:
Time only will tell if the bhikkhuni ordination at Bodhinyana monastery in October 2009 will be seen as a key breakthrough in the acceptance of a Theravada bhikkhuni order, or as an overly hasty and confrontational move that alienated many of those it was intended to persuade.

One hopes, of course, that it will be the former rather than the latter...


:thumbsup:

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8310
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:07 pm

bodhabill wrote:Hi David
David thank you letting all interested of Bhikkhu Bodhi's support to the Bhikkhuni Ordination http://www.supportbhikkhunis.org/ and thank you for your letter at the same site regarding the history of the Bhikkhuni ordinations


Hi Bill,

Thanks! Glad you liked it!

I hope the events in Australia prove fruitful and that it all turns out okay. It has been almost 1,000 years now since the bhikkhuni Order died out in Sri Lanka and I personally hope to see more bhikkhunis in the future.

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8310
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:12 pm

Chris wrote:If it was on the Agenda for the December meeting, it ought to have been left until then. Thank you Mike for keeping us all abreast of developments in this matter.


Hi Chris,

Okay, that sounds pretty reasonable. But what if WPP still said no to bhikkhuni ordinations? I know it is just speculating on our part, so you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but if WPP still said no, would your opinion be to not have the ceremony (after December)?

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10833
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:12 pm

Dear Chris,
Chris wrote:If it was on the Agenda for the December meeting, it ought to have been left until then. Thank you Mike for keeping us all abreast of developments in this matter.

You're welcome. I know that these events are difficult for many, particularly those who have benefited from contact with some of the students (or students of students) of Ajahn Chah who are now caught up in this matter. I would urge everyone to consider the benefit that they have brought us, and to wish for a positive future, rather than engaging in speculation about the motives of the various the people involved, directly or peripherally.

Metta :heart:
Mike

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20095
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:35 pm

As a matter of Thai civil law it was - and maybe still is - against the law in Thailand to ordain women. If it is, it probably is necessary for a Thai organization to disassociate oneself from something illegal, even if done in another country.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1416
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: England

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby gavesako » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:45 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Chris wrote:If it was on the Agenda for the December meeting, it ought to have been left until then. Thank you Mike for keeping us all abreast of developments in this matter.


Hi Chris,

Okay, that sounds pretty reasonable. But what if WPP still said no to bhikkhuni ordinations? I know it is just speculating on our part, so you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but if WPP still said no, would your opinion be to not have the ceremony (after December)?



I don't think anybody ever expected that Wat Pah Pong would agree to the Bhikkhuni Ordination, it was simply going to be a meeting at which the Western senior monks (some of whom rarely see one another) would talk about the matter and the implications it has. The expectation would then have been for Ajahn Brahm to leave the Wat Pah Pong group unilaterally (although I cannot imagine him doing that, because he obviously thinks that he is acting in the correct way in line with the style of his teacher Ajahn Chah, who was also an independent-minded forest monk at odds with the official Sangha hierarchy). Doing it in that way would look nicer to the outside world, rather than being expelled.
:(
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10833
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:47 pm

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:As a matter of Thai civil law it was - and maybe still is - against the law in Thailand to ordain women. If it is, it probably is necessary for a Thai organization to disassociate oneself from something illegal, even if done in another country.

Yes, that is one of the points made in the Wat Pah Pong document (though I'm not clear if it is actually civil law):
The individuals concerned cannot be considered Theravada Bhikkhunis, as this status contradicts the law of the Mahatherasamakhom, the Sangha administration of the Theravada order in Thailand.

I think that it is worth reading all the statements carefully, and reflecting on the difficulties for all concerned.

Metta
Mike

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20095
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:55 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:As a matter of Thai civil law it was - and maybe still is - against the law in Thailand to ordain women. If it is, it probably is necessary for a Thai organization to disassociate oneself from something illegal, even if done in another country.

Yes, that is one of the points made in the Wat Pah Pong document (though I'm not clear if it is actually civil law):
The individuals concerned cannot be considered Theravada Bhikkhunis, as this status contradicts the law of the Mahatherasamakhom, the Sangha administration of the Theravada order in Thailand.

I think that it is worth reading all the statements carefully, and reflecting on the difficulties for all concerned.

Metta
Mike

Then, clearly, the ordination was not a well thoughtout action as to what the reaction to it would have to be from the parent organization as well as the Thai monastic governing body.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1416
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: England

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby gavesako » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:56 pm

tiltbillings wrote:As a matter of Thai civil law it was - and maybe still is - against the law in Thailand to ordain women. If it is, it probably is necessary for a Thai organization to disassociate oneself from something illegal, even if done in another country.


Yes, Wat Pah Pong as a group enjoys a certain reputation in the Thai Sangha and Ajahn Brahm has recently become more visible in Thailand by giving talks, etc. When he suddenly does something which is technically against the Thai law (although there are other senior Thai monks who agree with it in principle), it might raise uncomfortable questions which will have to be answered by WPP representatives in Thailand. Since they are part of the official Thai Sangha institution, they have abide by the rulings of the Mahatherasamakhom (Council of Elders) and the Thai laws. Thai monks living abroad are regarded as "missionaries" (dhammaduta) and are controlled from Thailand, in the same way that the Vatican controls all branches of the Catholic church around the world. With Western monks it is a bit of a problem, though, because they are not Thai citizens and don't need special permissions from the Dept of Religious Affairs to travel abroad to spread Thai Buddhism there. So their status with regard to the Thai Sangha institution is a bit vague... There are some expectations as to how they should behave, but formally there is no requirement for them to follow Thai laws while they are abroad. It is more a matter of "knowing what should be done."
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20095
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:59 pm

gavesako wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As a matter of Thai civil law it was - and maybe still is - against the law in Thailand to ordain women. If it is, it probably is necessary for a Thai organization to disassociate oneself from something illegal, even if done in another country.


Yes, Wat Pah Pong as a group enjoys a certain reputation .... It is more a matter of "knowing what should be done."

Thanks. That puts it into perspective.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10833
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:12 pm

Dear Ven Gavesako,

Thank you for your contributions and clarifications. I know that this must be a difficult time and I sincerely wish you and the other monastics associated with Ajahn Chah well for the future.

Metta :heart:
Mike

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 8310
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:28 pm

gavesako wrote:I don't think anybody ever expected that Wat Pah Pong would agree to the Bhikkhuni Ordination,


Hi Bhante,

Okay, thanks. Then it appears that the timing of the ordinations in October vs. after December is moot, since they would never have approved anyway.

Thanks for the contributions, your work, your support of bhikkhunis, and clarifications. Metta to all.

User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 2716
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Dan74 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:49 pm

I wonder if amidst all the technicalities, politics and maneuvering, the simple question of whether or not this is going to help promote the Dhamma among women, has been addressed (by the "opposition")?

Clearly the Sangha are the torch-bearers of the Dhamma, the guardians of the spirit and the letter. Having a (largely) male Theravada Sangha limits the appeal of the Dhamma in the modern world, both for women and men, I think.

And I feel that having fully ordained Theravada bhikkhunis will help address this imbalance and inspire thousands of women across the world.

I remember when we had Ajahn Thanasanti http://awakeningtruth.org/ajahn_thanasanti.php come and talk. What an amazing talk directly from experience, and what an inspirational woman! Many of us were moved deeply and I am certain a seed was planted in many of us in the audience.

I hope the new bhikkhunis are inspired by this ordination and further inspire thousands!

_/|\_
_/|\_


Return to “Ordination and Monastic Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine